The Random Transformers Thoughts Thread

[Zommael]

This is why fans have long referred to combiner team robots as "Gestalts." As well as distinguishing them from other forms of Combiners (because from 1990-2001, that was the only official usage of the word 'Combiner'), it's also a reference to gestalt psychology, which looks at the mind as having a reality of its own that is separate from its parts. The word "gestalt" (say "ger-shtah'lt") means to be greater than the sum of ones parts.

So traditionally, gestalts tend to have gestalt minds; one that is greater than the sum of the individual minds that comprise it. This can be good or bad, depending on the individual minds themselves. It tends to work better among Autobot gestalts than Decepticon gestalts, because Autobots tend to be better at thinking more harmoniously and working cooperatively. Decepticons tend to be more selfish and even harbour ill feelings towards each other, which ends up creating a fractured gestalt mind. This is why Decepticon gestalts tend to be more psychologically unstable.

A balanced gestalt mind is required in order for the gestalt to function efficiently. Look at Defensor; you have two Protectobots with polar opposite views on combat. Blades, who's a violent action junkie, and Groove the pacifist (his personality was transplanted to First Aid in the G1 cartoon, but if you read the original tech specs bios, Groove is the pacifist). Defensor cannot allow Blades' more violent nature nor Groove's too pacifistic tendencies to dominate his mind, so what probably happens is that the two opposing views are balanced out, so that Defensor can be a force to reckon with, but only uses violence as a last resort. Decepticon gestalts are said to just become confused by the conflicting thoughts of their component members.

Regarding your question in terms of whether or not the component members can actually tap into each other's individual minds... I think it depends on the continuity, or possibly even the individual gestalt. It does appear to be that way in the IDW comics with Prowlastator etc. I'm not sure if Menasor had that level of psychological intimacy... cos Motormaster would likely want to kill all the other Stunticons if he knew how they truly felt about him (they all hate Motormaster). Or at the very least, refuse to work together again.

Although this might explain why Combiner Wars Groove has been relegated as a chest plate.

On one hand, that at least explains why even among "Scramble City" type combiners (or any combiner who can exchange limbs with another, really) there are still teams: presumably those teams would have the best assortment of personalities, or at least the closest bond, to allow them to form the most effective gestalt personality. So for instance a version of Ultra Prime made up of Optimus, Rodimus, and the four Protectobots wouldn't integrate as effectively as Defensor would.

On the other, it makes me wonder about those individuals such as Optimus Prime, Cyclonus, Grand Scourge, and apparently CW Scattershot, who are able to form their "Combiner" with any group of limbs they choose. Are the combined forms they create "ineffective" due to an insufficient balancing of personality components, or are the personalities of the torso/core simply so forceful that they are able to override those of their limbs? Given the individuals to whom this applies, I'd suggest it's the latter, but I'm a little iffy about whether Cyclonus and Scattershot are really that willful. It's an interesting topic to consider either way.

[Jaxius._]

This is why fans have long referred to combiner team robots as "Gestalts." As well as distinguishing them from other forms of Combiners (because from 1990-2001, that was the only official usage of the word 'Combiner'), it's also a reference to gestalt psychology, which looks at the mind as having a reality of its own that is separate from its parts. The word "gestalt" (say "ger-shtah'lt") means to be greater than the sum of ones parts.

So traditionally, gestalts tend to have gestalt minds; one that is greater than the sum of the individual minds that comprise it. This can be good or bad, depending on the individual minds themselves. It tends to work better among Autobot gestalts than Decepticon gestalts, because Autobots tend to be better at thinking more harmoniously and working cooperatively. Decepticons tend to be more selfish and even harbour ill feelings towards each other, which ends up creating a fractured gestalt mind. This is why Decepticon gestalts tend to be more psychologically unstable.

A balanced gestalt mind is required in order for the gestalt to function efficiently. Look at Defensor; you have two Protectobots with polar opposite views on combat. Blades, who's a violent action junkie, and Groove the pacifist (his personality was transplanted to First Aid in the G1 cartoon, but if you read the original tech specs bios, Groove is the pacifist). Defensor cannot allow Blades' more violent nature nor Groove's too pacifistic tendencies to dominate his mind, so what probably happens is that the two opposing views are balanced out, so that Defensor can be a force to reckon with, but only uses violence as a last resort. Decepticon gestalts are said to just become confused by the conflicting thoughts of their component members.

Regarding your question in terms of whether or not the component members can actually tap into each other's individual minds... I think it depends on the continuity, or possibly even the individual gestalt. It does appear to be that way in the IDW comics with Prowlastator etc. I'm not sure if Menasor had that level of psychological intimacy... cos Motormaster would likely want to kill all the other Stunticons if he knew how they truly felt about him (they all hate Motormaster). Or at the very least, refuse to work together again.

Although this might explain why Combiner Wars Groove has been relegated as a chest plate.

And I thought I knew a lot about transformers

Groove as a chestplate was because as defensor got older his armour plating sagged so he needed a bra.

Ew

[UltimateGalvatron]

And I thought I knew a lot about transformers

Groove as a chestplate was because as defensor got older his armour plating sagged so he needed a bra.

Ew

Well he is 30, as he first appeared in g1 in 1985

[Magnus]

As someone who only had the cartoon to go on (I didn't get to read too many toy bios back in the day, and I certainly didn't read any comics), I always thought that there was a separate, latent personality for the combined form inside the torso/leader, and that was unlocked or activated when the team combined.

[GoktimusPrime]

As someone who only had the cartoon to go on (I didn't get to read too many toy bios back in the day, and I certainly didn't read any comics), I always thought that there was a separate, latent personality for the combined form inside the torso/leader, and that was unlocked or activated when the team combined.

That's pretty much how I've always played it with my toys. It was also helped justify all the 'mix and matched' gestalts I had. e.g. Hot Spot combined with Slingshot, First Aid, Lightspeed and Afterburner was still Defensor etc.

[GoktimusPrime]

From here

My statement was poking fun at the reality that they are probably the two most trash-talked characters in G1. Despite this, Hot Rod is definitely a popular character (proven by how many toys/homages he gets) and an MP two pack with Wheelie would sell, just like any MP would these days.

Rodimus Prime wasn't nearly as bad as Wheelie in the G1 cartoon. He would've been a better leader if he didn't compare himself with Optimus Prime so much, where he was often seen doubting himself and not feeling worthy to be Optimus' successor. Guh. Bumblebee does the same thing in the current Robots In Disguise series, which was also highly annoying, but I did like how <RiD2015 spoiler> even after Optimus Prime returned from the dead, he refused to usurp Bumblebee, insisting that Bumblebee retain his position as Autobot commander. </spoiler> It's a significant improvement over the G1 cartoon, where the complete opposite happened. But honestly, aside from the occasional moments of self-doubt, Rodimus Prime really was actually an alright Autobot leader.

Wheelie and Daniel on the other hand is a whole 'nuther story. As I've often said on other threads, they're basically the G1 cartoon's equivalent to Jar Jar Binks. They are characters who takes up a lot of screen time (Wheelie appears more frequently than any of the other 1986 Autobot Mini-Cars, especially poor Hubcap who never even appeared at all!), but yet they contributes so little to the actual story. So Ultra Magnus doesn't get a birthday (that's not even his actual creation date)... big freakin' whoop. Daniel, Wheelie and Jar Jar are characters where you could omit almost all of their screen appearances and it would make very little (if any) difference to the story. They are just wasting screen time. The tap-dancing monkey from TF Prime actually has greater significance in its screen appearance than Wheelie or Daniel! I'm serious! Wheelie was slightly less annoying in The Headmasters (although that's not hard); at least the Japanese version doesn't make him constantly speak in lame rhymes... uh... otherwise he's still pretty stupid.

Many of you will remember Rob Jung's "Trannies" awards that ran through the 90s and 00s where Daniel and Wheelie were consistently voted by fans as the most hated characters in all Transfandom. And who could forget the BotCon 2001 comic which brutally killed off Daniel and Wheelie - and it's official canon! I remember laughing my head off when I first found out, and laughing and high-fiving other fans over it. (I later experienced a similar reaction when I saw Robot Chicken's "Jar Jar Returns" skit (although alas that's not canon ).

This isn't to say that Wheelie is an inherently bad character, per se. His original tech specs bio actually portrays him as something better, which the G1 cartoon failed to capitalise on. He was originally described as something akin to Mowgli from Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Book. The wild boy, the survivor (his function is Survivalist after all). The Big Looker Books and IDW comics have been more accurate to Wheelie's original character.

[Bartrim]

Haven't had much chance to look at my transformers lately. But I realised the combiner wars toys I've bought I still don't have a complete team

[GoktimusPrime]

Haven't had much chance to look at my transformers lately. But I realised the combiner wars toys I've bought I still don't have a complete team

Sounds like the way that I (and probably many other people) collected gestalts during G1! #oldschool

[Lint]

Sounds like the way that I (and probably many other people) collected gestalts during G1! #oldschool

QFT! I think the best I ever did back in the day was two legs of a Defensor. Could have got an arm as well but I managed to sweet-talk my mother into a Grimlock instead. Good trade!

[Jaxius._]

why do the simpler easier to mold shelf warming rid warriors $4 more than the complex (sort of) CW deluxe class figures?