How to improve combiners ?

[morg176]

How would you redesign/improve combining transformers, be it either the gimmick or the packaging or the combination design itself?

[Lint]

instead of having them combine into a gigantic humanoid robot, let them combine into other things like a giant battle turtle or something.

[Deonasis]

- No fists, feet, head or chest pieces to plug in. Each limb have 3 modes (alt, bot, limb). I believe Liokaiser is like this.

- Better connecting places, most arms combine at the shoulder joint which is very weak, make the arms or the torso include the whole shoulder.

- And better connectors, not just a plug.

[kup]

How would you redesign/improve combining transformers, be it either the gimmick or the packaging or the combination design itself?

By bringing back robot modes for the gestalt components :)

[GoktimusPrime]

- No fists, feet, head or chest pieces to plug in. Each limb have 3 modes (alt, bot, limb). I believe Liokaiser is like this.
Except for the head - which is still a detachable accessory, all of Liokaiser's gestalt parts are self-contained. This was a revolutionary concept for G1 (1989). Beast Wars gave us the first gestalts with fully self-contained gestalt parts though (Tripredacus and Magnaboss) and the new-moulded gestalts in Car Robot/RiD (JRX and Buildking) followed suit.

Unfortunately we went kinda backwards in 2004 with the Energon/Superlink Gestalts whose hands and feet were detachable accessories.

[morg176]

i agree with what has been said so far. Gestalts must have a proper hand and some kind of real foot so that they can at stand in a pose.

im not fond of the spring loaded feature of the pcc combiners as transforming the limbs was half the fun, and yes the limbs have to have a robot mode. the dinosaur/ animal mode of grimstomes drones is a halfway thing but still they should be robots too.

[Sharky]

proper hands is a must, not weird 3 pronged claws or bizzar out of proportion mangle looking things.... 4 fingers and a thumb that can hold a weapon

[morg176]

pentadactyl hands are definitely a must! but dont forget there is more to combiners than just 5 robots that join up.

doucons (an awesome idea poorly translated to the toy world)
you could also do two animals that join up into one robot, the combinations are endless, but the components would have to be engineered to each other, not freely modular like in PCC as there are way too many compromises.

ALSO what gimmicks should be kept/re'engineered, which ones work and which fall short (head, target, power master etc)

what would you do if you could do anything in creating a combining/and or /gimmick line for tf, and what size point would it be at, justify your answers!

[Lord_Zed]

Except for the head - which is still a detachable accessory, all of Liokaiser's gestalt parts are self-contained. This was a revolutionary concept for G1 (1989). Beast Wars gave us the first gestalts with fully self-contained gestalt parts though (Tripredacus and Magnaboss) and the new-moulded gestalts in Car Robot/RiD (JRX and Buildking) followed suit.

Unfortunately we went kinda backwards in 2004 with the Energon/Superlink Gestalts whose hands and feet were detachable accessories.

I think detachable parts are ok IF they can be stored somewhere in bot and alt mode, and if they actualy look like something. The Energon accessories might have been ok if they actualy looked like robot feet or fists and not transparent wierd things.:confused:

[kup]

I think detachable parts are ok IF they can be stored somewhere in bot and alt mode, and if they actualy look like something. The Energon accessories might have been ok if they actualy looked like robot feet or fists and not transparent wierd things.:confused:

Yeah that's what the concept that the Crossfire sets executed, specially the Bruticus one. All 'Combiner kibble' can be used as weapons or upgrades for the individual figures.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Bigger component bots too.

G1 Predaking could step on today's PCCs (or at least he could if he had articulated legs).

[Verno]

The Beast Wars combiners, Magnaboss and Tripredacus, have some good design features. For starters, they're not your basic 'Voltron' assmbly.

Ball joints were a great step forward in TF toy technology, but you'll notice they aren't overly prevelant in these figures, they still needed to be sturdy enough to function in the combined mode. Playability in a combiner, who'd have thought it possible.

But perhaps with the focus on the grandeur of the combined mode, the robot modes for the individual figures did suffer a little. In Magnaboss' case: Ironhides lack of any sort of hands what so ever is saddening. Silverbolt is basically still in beast mode in robot mode with the gigantic wings on his back but Prowl comes through with a pretty solid robot mode, apart from the kibble-tastic lions mane on his back.

In regards to Tripredacus: Sea Clamp's failure is obvious. He comes with a launcher he can neither hold nor shoot anything from off his own bot. Ram Horn and Cicadacon have pretty convincing robot modes though.

All 6 beast modes are good, perhaps with the exception of Silverbolt. Again those gigantic wings are troublesome. With some design retooling, some detatchable launchers and missiles would cure the flaw of the bulky wings. But the others are solid beasts, with the usual amount of robotics showing but thats to be expected from the BW line in general and are by no means the worst offenders.

I'd love to see Hasbro have another crack at these or figures in this vein. Perhaps the Cybertronian modes of the Magnaboss and Tripredacus.

But it was the abandonment of the, up to that point, norm (The limb and torso combination, the umpteen loose accessories and peg in hole connection etc) and total rehashing of the idea by Kenner which led to these changes. If only Hasbro could again hand Kenner over the reigns and get them to give it another go, but oops, they ate them and destroyed any trace of them.

With a bit more focus on the single robot modes, but not at the expense of either of the two modes of course, I think combiners could work very well in future TF lines.

But of course it may not be in Hasbro's best interests. Look how many different versions on Devastator they put out in ROTF. Ones that combine, ones they don't, ones that only combine every second tuesday, green and purple ones...

More money to be made in non-functioning combiners obviously!

[KaRNiV8L PRiME]

I like the idea of powercore combiners in that there are commander central transformers and interchangable limb units. I would like to see this in a larger scale. It would be great to have universe ultra size commanders combining with deluxe size arm/leg transformers that all have robot/alt mode/combiner modes. Much like PCC you could make your own combiner. I look at my universe ultra onslaught and think how cool it would be to add deluxe size arms and legs to him. These would be epic

sold separately
$60 Ultra Commander (3-4 diff molds)
$25 Deluxe limbs (8-12 diff arm/leg molds)

or
$150 Giftset

[Tallestblue]

I'd like to see a Devastator that uses the Power Core Combiners concept of limbs that transform from vehicles when snapped together. including Robot modes of course.
When you push Scavenger and Hook together with Scrapper they form arms and a head, snap Long Haul onto this combo and he forms a waist and thighs then Bonecrusher and Mixmaster form calves and feet. In my head it looks like the Devastator from All Hail Megatron. Sigh. If only I could make toys.

[GoktimusPrime]

I liked the idea of Power Core Combiners until I bought the first wave 5-packs. Now I'm pretty disillusioned :(


More money to be made in non-functioning combiners obviously!
Sad but true :mad:

[Lord_Zed]

I liked the idea of Power Core Combiners until I bought the first wave 5-packs. Now I'm pretty disillusioned :(



Yeah PCC's are just to Power Rangerish for me, it also bugs me that the Commanders and Drones are different scales. If the Commanders were big vehicles and the Drones smaller ones then that would make more sense.

As for the three bot combiners the combined form of the Shinkansen team is pretty well executed too.



Bigger component bots too.

G1 Predaking could step on today's PCCs (or at least he could if he had articulated legs).

Sure as long as they make the body bigger too, like a Voyager and Deluxe team maybe. I'm not a big fan of Predaking because his torso is so small compared to his limbs.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Make a combiner team made up of Drift clones.:p

[kup]

Make a combiner team made up of Drift clones.:p

Drift Clones! Combine into...Sky Shadow's worst NIGHTMARE!! :p

[Verno]

If all else fails, make them BIG!

[liegeprime]

If all else fails, make them BIG!

and sell em cheap;) we always get ripped off nowadays with size classification gone wrong.... deluxe size in a voyager box - Im looking at you Animated Lugnut!!

[dirge]

Sick him, Skyshadow! (:

[liegeprime]

Sick him, Skyshadow! (:

what??!? as awesome as Lugnut may be, he is still midget class and not Voyager as Hasbro would have us ( and our pockets) believe. were he voyager he would be as big as Grimlock at least :p same with that first release Bulkhead figure :rolleyes:

[morg176]

what about an insecticons PCC 5 pack, and extra dino linbs for the dinobot PCC.
Which dinos would you like to see as limbs and which dinos as tiorso's

do you think that animals make better drones than vehicles, at least personalities can be attributed to animals

[morg176]

i think duocon type combiners are worth another hit and i would have loved to see them in an animated style [one of my favourite]

which two vehicles/two animals would you have as components in your doucon/bionbot

[liegeprime]

I wish theyd make the PCC commanders- (the 2 pack ones) able to plug into each other:p to make up a bugger combiner bot with minicon armour/weapons attached, now that would be awesome! Anyone could end up either as a limb, or torso, and each has a different head and personality hehehe

Another idea

Combining this idea with the other thread - Mythological Tfs, How about smaller monsters that combine into a gestalt monster!? Its always been that Gestalts so far ended up in humanoid form why not a gestalt Hydra or Gestalt Gryphon?

[GoktimusPrime]

I wish the PCC limbs could transform into robots! Automorphing drones FTL. :(


Its always been that Gestalts so far ended up in humanoid form why not a gestalt Hydra or Gestalt Gryphon?
Not always. There's one gestalt with a saurian (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Tri-Rex) form and another with a non-sapien hominid ("ape"*) (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Devastator_%28ROTF%29) form. I'm not sure how marketable non-sapien gestalt forms would be... cos both of those examples were/are massive shelf-warmers.

-----------------------------------------------------
*cos technically sapiens are apes ;)

[liegeprime]

I wish the PCC limbs could transform into robots! Automorphing drones FTL. :(


Not always. There's one gestalt with a saurian (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Tri-Rex) form and another with a non-sapien hominid ("ape"*) (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Devastator_%28ROTF%29) form. I'm not sure how marketable non-sapien gestalt forms would be... cos both of those examples were/are massive shelf-warmers.


yeah well, both of those two were poorly executed, the giant new version devy are more of like a buncha drones coming together... and as for animorphs?!? ( need I say more):rolleyes: even powrrangers with the blocky zords are more acceptable than animorphs, ugh.

[The Scream Man]

Honestly i dont know that any combiners work well really. To me the closest is Rail Racer from RID. They looked good as individual units and as a whle, it held together well and they still had good alt modes. Make em like that! :)

[GoktimusPrime]

due to their very nature, gestalts are all about compromise. But as you said, the better gestalts are the ones that hold up well as individual units and in combined gestalt form. I find Predaking to be a pretty good gestalt by 1986 standards. Of course, he's also really expensive. :p But I find most gestalts are pretty well made. I've only bought two gestalts that disappointed me at the time of purchase:
+ 1989, when I completed Monstructor. Most underwhelming.
+ 2010, when I bought Combiner Class Devastator. F'expensively underwhelming! :(

Otherwise I've always been stoked with my gestalts. :)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/G1%20toyplay/th_g1_1988.jpg

[morg176]

my premise for gestalts is the following.

for teams of 5 where you have a core bot and limbs [be it clones or bots in their own right] many aspects of a really cool gestalt will often be sacrificed for the engineering of the toy to be cost effective, hopefully this will change into the direction of some of the third party tf that have recently been released.

As i stated in a previous message in this thread, one combiner group that was very much short lived was the duocons, unfortunately these figures were poorly executed with essentially no articulation. But the premise itself was a sound one. if redesigned to include :animals and/or vehicles as components and with each figure having components that have been engineered only to fit together and not with every other piece. Either two animals/two vehicles/1x animal + 1x vehicle would tf together to form a larger [deluxe] robot from 2 x scout size figures.

Also, 'partner' gimmicks like minicons proved favourable to many, yet often lacking in something. What about the following: A robot and an animal combination: they tf together into a vehicle like a car or a jet etc.
highly detailed animal partners would be brimming with weapons and may even carry the weapons of the robot as part of their form [flight feather becomes daggers...]

what do you think?

[SharkyMcShark]

Morg the way you've described your idea for modern Duocons is pretty much the exact premise of the Autobot figures in Energon. Figure with alt mode, robot mode, and half of a larger robot mode.

[morg176]

please do not assume that the duocon makeover is intended to be similar to the energon 2bot combiners. I was never fond of that line. And i think that too much was compromised to have any two random autobots combinable.

[GoktimusPrime]

Morg the way you've described your idea for modern Duocons is pretty much the exact premise of the Autobot figures in Energon. Figure with alt mode, robot mode, and half of a larger robot mode.
I disagree.

Duocons have two vehicles that merge to form a single robot, but each vehicle does NOT transform into an autonomous robot. The Energon Powerlinx Autobots are more similar to G1's Multi-Force (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Multiforce). Like Energon Superlinkers, each Multiforce Autobot can transform into a vehicle and robot, and any two robot can combine with each other to form a larger robot (e.g. Wing can merge with Waver to form Wingwaver, or Waver can merge with Wing to form Waverwing etc.). Although IMO 1989's Multiforcers were better because:
+ The combined robot was a new entity (as demonstrated in Mach and Tackle (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mach_and_Tackle)), whereas in Energon it seems that the top robot is in charge.
+ With the toy a new head would emerge depending on who was on top, and it wasn't that robot's actual head. e.g. If Mach combined with Tackle, you'd see Mach's "combiner head" (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/cb/Machtackle.jpg) and not Mach's actual head (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/8/8c/AnimeMach.jpg/250px-AnimeMach.jpg). In Energon if you combine say Hot Shot with Inferno, it's still Hot Shot's head on the combined form.
+ The Multiforcers can all merge into the gestalt robot Landcross (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Landcross_%28Victory%29). The Energon Powerlinxers can't combine together to form a gestalt, and the Energon gestalt robots can't Powerlinx!

Magmatron is more similar to a Duocon, only that he has three alternate forms that combine to form a gestalt robot form (as well as a gestalt beast form (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/55/BM_Magmatron_Toy.jpg)!) - although the crucial difference is that Magmatron doesn't have a spring activated single touch transformation gimmick. And I think that was the Duocon's main compromise. I don't mind the concept of having different alt forms combining into a robot, but I think having them as an "activator" restricts the engineering. I know there are a lot of really cool one-touch transformation toys out there, like the flipchangers and a lot of the Activators are pretty neat -- but of course, none of them are combiners. If they wanted to revisit the Duocon concept then I'd rather they didn't revisit the single-touch spring activation.

[SharkyMcShark]

I disagree.


Then you didn't read what he actually wrote

[SharkyMcShark]

please do not assume that the duocon makeover is intended to be similar to the energon 2bot combiners. I was never fond of that line. And i think that too much was compromised to have any two random autobots combinable.

Well how is it different then? Two figures with alt and robot modes form halves of a larger robot - the only way it could be conceptually different is if they were specifically partnered with eachother.

[morg176]

a makeover of the duocon concept [although it might need a name change], hmm, i would lose all the springloaded stuff and maybe even go with a 'animated style' approach, 2 scout vehicles [or animals] that form a robot, or more correctly one robot that splits into two vehicles.

What two vehicles/animals/mix would you chose if you were a duocon/bot

[kurdt_the_goat]

Has anyone played with a Chogokin Aquarion? Not much info around ... but there is this review (http://hellric.over-blog.com/article-4120647.html). The bit that makes it unique is:


Basicly, any of the 3 vectors can become arms, legs or back, and each vector has its own head..... You can also combine the vectors to make a bigger spaceship, or a 4 armed mech.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5930/1679/1600/Aqaurion2.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5930/1679/1600/Aquarion.jpg

Some more pics here (http://robotjapan.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=SOC&thread=4051&page=6#135707)

[SharkyMcShark]

any of the 3 vectors can become arms, legs or back,

Reminds me of Landfill

[morg176]

Well how is it different then? Two figures with alt and robot modes form halves of a larger robot - the only way it could be conceptually different is if they were specifically partnered with eachother.

I see the misunderstanding, and let me apologise if i did not make myself as clear as i should have, my bad.

There would be a single robot who would split/decompile into 2 x vehicles as his alt mode. just like flywheels did. 1 x robot > two vehicles [tank + jet]

[kurdt_the_goat]

Reminds me of Landfill

Curse my incomplete knowledge of Transformers!

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

a makeover of the duocon concept [although it might need a name change], hmm, i would lose all the springloaded stuff and maybe even go with a 'animated style' approach, 2 scout vehicles [or animals] that form a robot, or more correctly one robot that splits into two vehicles.

What two vehicles/animals/mix would you chose if you were a duocon/botI'd almost be inclined to revisit the Decepticon small Headmasters with two robots with individual robot and beast modes able to combine into a fuzor-style single alt-mode. Autobots would sorta work with half-tracks and turboprops.
It'd be cool if you could pull it off right.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Reminds me of Landfill

Only that chogokin looks much much cooler!

[SharkyMcShark]

Only that chogokin looks much much cooler!

the chogokin looks ridiculously cool. What's the deal with them?

They've gone onto my list of non TF items to pick up if I ever come into a large sum of money (with the 1/60 YF-19)

[GoktimusPrime]

Then you didn't read what he actually wrote

Let's revise...


i think duocon type combiners are worth another hit and i would have loved to see them in an animated style [one of my favourite]


As i stated in a previous message in this thread, one combiner group that was very much short lived was the duocons, unfortunately these figures were poorly executed with essentially no articulation. But the premise itself was a sound one. if redesigned to include :animals and/or vehicles as components and with each figure having components that have been engineered only to fit together and not with every other piece. Either two animals/two vehicles/1x animal + 1x vehicle would tf together to form a larger [deluxe] robot from 2 x scout size figures.
Analysis: morg176 suggested revisiting the Duocon concept, which is combining 2 alt modes to form a single robot form.

To which you said:

Morg the way you've described your idea for modern Duocons is pretty much the exact premise of the Autobot figures in Energon. Figure with alt mode, robot mode, and half of a larger robot mode.
Analysis: You were suggesting that the Energon Powerlinx gimmick was an exact match for morg176's concept of a revisited Duocon concept as they are two independent Transformers with autonomous robot modes who also combine to form a larger robot.

Conclusion: The suggestion of Energon Powerlinxers being an 'exact' upgrade of the Duocon concept is debatable as the Duocons' separate halves never had autonomous robot forms (e.g. "Fly" and "Wheels" are not independent Decepticons who form Flywheels). The G1 Multiforcers are a more similar comparison to the Energon Powerlinxers as they ARE autonomous robots with independent alt modes who do merge into combined robot modes (e.g. Dash and Tacker combine to form Dashtacker).

Have I missed something?

[omegaprime]

easy way to improve combiners have a line where

ever transformer can be a head arms or legs so you can pick and chose who ever and what ever you want imagian if you could combine megatron optimus glavatron rodimus and ultramagnus with any combanation you want it would be amazing

[GoktimusPrime]

That sounds like the basic concept of gestalt lines like:

+ G1 "Scramble" gestalts (e.g. Superion, Defensor, Computron, Bruticus, Menasor, Abominus, Piranacon etc.)
+ Landcross (arms can swap around, as can legs)
+ Micromaster gestalts (arms can swap around, as can legs)
+ Build King (RiD Landfill)
+ Energon/Superlink gestalts
+ Power Core Combiners (although the limbs are just drones, not actual Transformers)

However these are all gestalts that feature interchangeable limbs. The robots that form the head/torso are unable to form limbs nor can the limb robots become the head/torso. But as Scream Man said before, gestalts are always inherently compromised in engineering to some degree due to the very fact that on top of transforming from robots to alt modes, they have to be able to combine. Couple that with the additional feature of having interchangeable limbs then you're providing further engineering complications.

I feel sorry for guys like D-Go, San D-Go, Glide and Chain Gun who form the bums of their respective gestalts! :o

[morg176]

the main reasoning behind a makeover for duocons [and autobot equiv] is that you get two alt modes at the same time and you may be able to use alot of those vehicle modes that are difficult to translate to toys, often due to amount of kibble involved or having 'not enough to work with'

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

and sell em cheap;) we always get ripped off nowadays with size classification gone wrong.... deluxe size in a voyager box - Im looking at you Animated Lugnut!!

Animated Lugnut is clearly a larger size in vehicle mode than a deluxe. Bulkier in robot mode too.

[morg176]

what two animals would you have as your duocon alt modes

eg (a blowfly and a spider) or a bulldog and a goldfish? be creative

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

An Elephant and a mouse. That would make for some interesting engineering.

[Bartrim]

An Elephant and a mouse. That would make for some interesting engineering.

Especially if you take into consideration the whole "elephants being afraid of mice" thing:p

[Golden Phoenix]

An Elephant and a mouse. That would make for some interesting engineering.

I think that would work better as a Headmaster thing

[morg176]

In concept a mouse and an elephant does sound very cool, it would work great as a headmaster or similar but i believe that it may prove very difficult to engineer, pity.

we really need to start drawing some of these ideas on paper...

[Golden Phoenix]

In concept a mouse and an elephant does sound very cool, it would work great as a headmaster or similar but i believe that it may prove very difficult to engineer, pity.

we really need to start drawing some of these ideas on paper...
Screw Fans Project, lets do OTCA toys

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Especially if you take into consideration the whole "elephants being afraid of mice" thing:p
Ha ha! Yeh, that was my main line of thinking and I wondered if anyone else would catch on. Might make for a neurotic character!

I think that would work better as a Headmaster thing
Still combiners of sorts;) Would even enhance the neurosis!:D

[liegeprime]

Still combiners of sorts;) Would even enhance the neurosis!:D

Well the Duocons personality profile were all fractured personalities anyhow due to the splitting of the brains I think ... so this would fit in just well... with a background tech spec of claiming the technology is still unperfected til this time since the breat wars introduced the Duocons.:D

[morg176]

its amazing and just a little aggravating that when you actually try to sit down and design a function duocon [we need to come up with an autobot name for it too] its actually seemingly difficult. I invite others to have a go at it and see what they can actually come up with.

[MV75]

How to improve combiners?

Just reissue superion, menasor, defensor, computron, devastor, etc and be done with it as they'll never improve upon those even with 24 years more toy technology. Want proof? Just look at what is in the stores right now.....

[KaRNiV8L PRiME]

Hasbro should purchase fansproject and let them officially redesign all the G1 combiners..period. They would then get the funds and backing to mass release these at retail under the name masterpiece combiners. I love what they did with bruticus but if fansproject had designed all the individual components it would have been truly a work of art.

[morg176]

i have to agree with this, fans project has designed [or redesigned] two of the best transformers that have ever hit the fans, munitioner [swindle] and explorer [blast off] the look and pose-ability of these figures far surpasses anything that hasbro has done. Its true that hasbro should buy fans project, yet leave them as is and pump in the funding and give them what they need to do it better. And they would have the mass production to make them cheaper for the man on the street to purchase.

Maybe fansproject should redo the duocons, imaging the possibilities

[GoktimusPrime]

How to improve combiners?

Just reissue superion, menasor, defensor, computron, devastor, etc and be done with it as they'll never improve upon those even with 24 years more toy technology. Want proof? Just look at what is in the stores right now.....
I disagree. There have been several improvements in gestalt toy technology since 1985/86. Devastator's actually quite fragile as a gestalt and tends to fall apart easily. Some of the "Scramble" gestalts' limb members suffer from "blockhead" syndrome. And all of the "GeeWun" gestalts lack self-contained gestalt parts which was something that was only introduced in 1989 with Liokaiser.

We've had some great gestalts with superior sculpts, engineering, posability and fully self-contained gestalt parts, such as:
+ Tripredacus
+ Magnaboss
+ Build King/Landfill
+ JRX/Rail Racer
+ Legends Class ROTF Devastator

With the exception of Legends Class ROTF Devastator, I think this standard has declined since Car Robot/RiD. The Superlink/Energon gestalts went back to the bad old days of non-self-contained gestalt parts (though arguably it was part of the whole "energon weapon" theme of the line) and Combiner Class Devastator was 5 flavours of fail.


Hasbro should purchase fansproject and let them officially redesign all the G1 combiners..period. They would then get the funds and backing to mass release these at retail under the name masterpiece combiners. I love what they did with bruticus but if fansproject had designed all the individual components it would have been truly a work of art.
Is Fansproject even a legitimate corporation for Hasbro to take over? Cos I don't think Hasbro's allowed to takeover companies of dubious legal status. Although I suppose HasTak could attempt to snipe talent from Fansproject... <shrug>

My knowledge of Fansproject items is extremely limited... but keep in mind that when HasTak design toys they're limited to very strictly controlled budgets. A lot of features are often changed or dropped due because they exceeded budget (e.g. Prototype Godbomber (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7f/ProtoGodBomber.jpg)); even simple things like a minor paint app (e.g. red tips on Animated Deluxe Bumblebee's rockets (http://www.hasbrotoyshop.com/ProductsByBrand.htm?BR=496&ID=21346)). The key to being a successful Transformers designer for HasTak is not only to design decent toys, but to do so while keeping within a strictly predetermined budget.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Yeh, that was my thinking as well on the budget front.

Just compare the prices of muntioner and the other guy to an equivalent sized hatak transformer.

If I had to pay FP prices for all deluxes I would give up. Many many things to consider on the combiner front.

I assume they are required to pass the legendary 'drop test' as a combined mode as well?

[liegeprime]

The key to being a successful Transformers designer for HasTak is not only to design decent toys, but to do so while keeping within a strictly predetermined budget.

Which means the designer has to have a good stable mental capacity to accept a lot of frustrations and the fact that his original designs will never see the light as it would be constantly be changed even up to the last minute detail in every step of the way due to this "strictly predetermined budget (look-up Wikipedia - Miser :p)"

might as well just submit a photo of gumby on reused paper that way he/she wont get so frustrated...... it wont end up as gumby anyways:rolleyes:;)

[GoktimusPrime]

Which means the designer has to have a good stable mental capacity to accept a lot of frustrations and the fact that his original designs will never see the light as it would be constantly be changed even up to the last minute detail in every step of the way due to this "strictly predetermined budget (look-up Wikipedia - Miser :p)"
If designers ignored budget and created a toy solely based on all the cool things fans want, they'd probably end up with a product like this (http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Homer). :cool:

[morg176]

if you were challenged with redesigning broadside [arguably the poorest translation to toy of any triple changer] as an autobot duocon type figure, how would you go about it

[SilverDragon]

Thinking about Duocons for a bit (they are sort of combiners, aren't they?), I think a modern Duocon should be more complex. Instead of having one vehicle mode form one half of the body, maybe each vehicle sort of breaks apart and plugs into the other to form the robot mode, sort of like TFA Safeguard does.

[morg176]

admittedly, i wouldnt go the same way as safeguard (a robot made from two distinct bilateral halves), it would have to be more integrated i think so it looked more like a single character.

[GoktimusPrime]

Like Energon Omega Supreme?

[morg176]

Like Energon Omega Supreme?

possibly, the character has to look like it belongs, not like a character that is just one vehicle dumped onto another with arms and legs.

E OS pulls this off ok, although i didnt like the toy enough to buy it. some of the larger leader class tf are more like large dolls that action figure toys, and are f* stupidly expensive for what you actually get. Maybe thats why they are often shelfhuggers

sometimes, if not often, a scout/deluxe toy gives far more value/play for the dollar

[SofaMan]

Mutant Beast Combiner.

Mutant Beasts were some of the most underrated Beast Wars toys (even though they were originally designed as Animorphs). I still think they're awesome.

Imagine the pathos - these characters who lament their lost robots modes can only regain one by combining their bodies and identities with one another.

Better yet, they could combine to form a Chimera.

[GoktimusPrime]

E OS pulls this off ok, although i didnt like the toy enough to buy it.
Yeah, it's a really underwhelming and f'expensive toy. But it was the closest match I could think of with the concept you were suggesting. :)

I like the Headmaster unit on it though... I call it Energon Omega Spreem. ;)


some of the larger leader class tf are more like large dolls that action figure toys, and are f* stupidly expensive for what you actually get. Maybe thats why they are often shelfhuggers
Most boxed Transformers are like this. That's why sometimes when people say things like a certain carded toy (e.g. WFC Optimus Prime) should be made as a Voyager or something, I'm hesitant to agree cos odds are if Hasbro did do that, the engineering would only be marginally better - but not enough to justify the price point... which would be justified by Hasbro with an electronic gimmick (which in turn compromises engineering; e.g. if there's a sound gimmick the toy would have to be designed around a central "block"). That's why a lot of carded toys, like WFC Optimus Prime, are often better designed than their larger and more expensive boxed counterparts.

[morg176]

what do you want in a dinobot combiner, scramble city type? more pcc cores and drones? a 6 bot constructicon style?

what do you want?

[Gutsman Heavy]

I want I combiner composed entirely of Walrus TFs.

[SofaMan]

If they were ever going to do a real Dinobots combiner, I'd like them to attempt something in the vein of Fossil Lord (http://www.toyarchive.com/RocklordsFossil.html), with the obvious caveat that it would need to be well implemented.

[Tallestblue]

If they were ever going to do a real Dinobots combiner, I'd like them to attempt something in the vein of Fossil Lord (http://www.toyarchive.com/RocklordsFossil.html), with the obvious caveat that it would need to be well implemented.

My God that is an ugly toy. And if I was playoing with it, I couldn't help but sing "Dem Bones."

[kup]

Which means the designer has to have a good stable mental capacity to accept a lot of frustrations and the fact that his original designs will never see the light as it would be constantly be changed even up to the last minute detail in every step of the way due to this "strictly predetermined budget (look-up Wikipedia - Miser :p)"

might as well just submit a photo of gumby on reused paper that way he/she wont get so frustrated...... it wont end up as gumby anyways:rolleyes:;)


Yeah, Hasbro would never take over FansProject because it doesn't fit Hasbro's business model to do mass releases of collector toys. Even 'collector friendly' lines such as Alternators, reissues and Titaniums had to conform to child safety or child appeal/marketing restrictions because the retailers would not accept collector focused products in toy shelves. Mattel seems to have a more collector friendly business model which unfortunately Hasbro is lacking.

In the unlikely scenario that Hasbro does employ someone from FansProject, I doubt they would have the freedom to make toys like Munitioner and Explorer. As Liege puts it, they would have to conform to Hasbro imposed budgets, restrictions and marketing strategy (aka: what Walmart wants) so the result would just be a regular Hasbro figure even if a FansProject designer makes it. The Takara-Tomy designers are already a very talented bunch but as they have themselves expressed, they have to conform to Hasbro demands which considerably changes the figure from concept design to final product - This is a restriction that FansProjects doesn't have to deal with.

Things are fine as they are. I don't want Hasbro ruining what is awesome non KO 3rd Party figures. They satisfy the collector market while Hasbro satisfies the mainstream - The balance is fine.

[GoktimusPrime]

Even Takara(TOMY) has to conform to its own restrictions too. G1 Godbomber is a classic example of this. I'd like to see Hasbro do something that can appeal to both collectors and kids at the same time - like my hypothetical The Generations Collection (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=8745) series... contemporary versions of G1 figures in vintage packaging -- much like what Hasbro does for Star Wars.

Getting back on topic, Transformers Generations Deluxe reveals some interesting abandoned designs for combiners/gestalts for G1. Page 99 shows these "Duocon" kind of toys where there's an alligator and a sports car that combine to form a robot. Another is a bison and a jet fighter who combine into a robot. Both the alligator and bison look more organic too and not robotic like typical G1 animal modes.

p.108 shows a Transformer with 3 different Transformers than can transform from robot to robotic dinosaur, and all three can combine to form a combined dino mode. This toy was intended for release in 1987. The same page also shows a gestalt comprised of 15 Transformers. Also intended for 1987 it's divided into 3 teams of 5 - an air team, a construction team and a road team. Note that if these toys had been made, it would have been the first Transformers V-22 Osprey.

SofaMan: the closest HasTak has come to making fossil Transformers was another abandoned concept for G1. See page 108 of Transformers Generations for a picture of a Transformer that would've transformed into a piece of rock with fossilised bones in it. Weird! It's bizarre to think that HasTak did actually plan on making Rock Lords for Transformers (see p. 98!).

[SofaMan]

I Don't have the Deluxe edition of the book, so I looked it up online. The dinosaur combiner they show is quite similar to Magmatron in its combined mode, and the fossil TF looks interesting.

They even designed a 15 piece MM combiner, and genuine 80s Real Gear! :)