DOTM - not excited? [possible spoils]

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Yeah but you'd expect Optimus Prime to rise above petty feelings for revenge and act PROFESSIONAL.

For example say there's a guy who walks into a building and shoots innocent people, then the police arrive. Unless he's immediately threatening a life they're not going to get police snipers to take him down. First they're going to ask him to surrender. And if he DOES surrender, or say a cop shoots him in the leg and incapacitates him, would you expect the police to walk up to him and say, "Any last words?" before shooting him in the head at point blank range? Or would you expect the police to arrest him? If the police chose to shoot him, what do you think would happen to that officer?

Soldiers get into massive trouble if they abuse POWs in any way (e.g. humiliation, torture etc.). And the execution of POWs is considered barbaric.

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Prime is not a professional soldier. None of the autobots are. They have been forced into war to preserve their way of life. Even if they have been at war for a millenia they are still civilians fighting a war that haven't had the proper training to act professional.

Also what about the fact that Demolisher wouldn't go willingly. He resisted arrest and it took Prime and Ironhide to physically restrain him. Also where would he be incarcerated? He is a war criminal on the run because his leader is dead. Even when he was crippled he didn't even surrender he made threats about "The Fallen" taking over Earth.

I've got no problem with the execution of Demolisher.

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Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy

My issue was that it's a massive cop out, lets have the biggest con ever, that would make an awesome fight! But instead they snuffed him with an with a pew pew cannon. It was BORING.

Surely no one enjoyed seeing a cannon (regardless of location) kill devastator. It's the new definition of anti-climax.

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This I agree with. I was hoping for a massive robot fight with autobots running and shooting. Maybe Prime flying around taking shots and Devastator lumbering about causing damage. Maybe a casualty or two as well.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

It is interesting that the movie novelisation just has Demolisher saying his final words after Prime's attack with no comment or kill shot from Prime. In the comic adaptation Furman has Prime say "I wish there was another way" as he delivers a fatal blow. Both seem more 'right' and suggest the adaptors weren't fans of that scene or the script was rewritten at a late stage.

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Yep. That's a much better way of handling it (especially in the comic adaptation) than what happened in the movie. Just a short simple line like, "I wish there was another way." would have done the trick nicely.

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Originally Posted by Doubledealer

I've interpretted the scene differently to yourself. Rather than simply being incapacitated, I see a Decepticon in a great deal of pain, beyond repair and close to death. The only thing Prime could do was to 'put him out of his misery' so to speak. He knew this and that's ultimately why he introduced Demolishor to his little friend. Perhaps he could have said something a bit better than 'Any last words?' but this is a war and sadly not everything happens the way it should.

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Yeah but a small line just to indicate this to the audience would have made a massive difference, rather than leaving it ambiguous and looking like an execution.

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Originally Posted by Doubledealer

I actually think it makes Prime a bit more interesting and less predictable than usual. *shrugs*

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We had enough character contradictions in Beast Machines thanks. Don't need any more. Let's leave those seeds of the future lie buried in the past! :D

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Originally Posted by Fonecrusher

It's true ROTF sucked Devastator's very large balls, but I will defend the right for Prime or any other Autobot to kill Decepticons, even in a execution style manner. The Decepticons in the movieverse are unlike anything we have ever seen, they are far more sadistic and brutal then any other universe I know, they won't think twice about gutting a Autobot for the fun of it.

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But the Autobots are meant to be the good guys - they're meant to have a higher standard of morals over the Decepticons. Not lower themselves to their same level. That's one thing that always separated Optimus Prime's other incarnations and made him distinct... as G1 Megatron once said in the episode "Heavy Metal War," Optimus Prime's only weakness is his sense of honour. In "Afterdeath" Optimus Prime voluntarily allowed himself to be killed (in fact he demanded it) after he lost to Megatron in a LAN game. Despite the fact that Megatron used a hack code to cheat, Optimus Prime insisted on keeping his deal with Megatron (that whoever died in the virtual world would have to die in reality too). And thus he was DESTROYED (and stayed dead until they rebuilt him as a Powermaster).

And we saw this in movieverse Optimus Prime too. In TF1 Optimus Prime repeatedly said that if he could not defeat Megatron then he would sacrifice himself by merging the AllSpark with his own Spark -- and even as Megatron came to finish him he told Sam to push the AllSpark into his chest. And when Sam decided to push it into Megatron's chest instead, Prime called out, "No Sam!" - and as mentioned before, Prime expressed regret to Megatron after his demise.

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Originally Posted by Fonecrusher

Perhaps the movie comics probably demonstrate this better than the actual movies themselves I guess: Demolisher slaughtered entire Autobot settlements on Cybertron, besides probably killing a load of people in China, he got what was coming to him, perhaps that factored in to Prime's decision to kill him?

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Yeah I know Tales of the Fallen tried to justify the execution -- but of course, they wouldn't have had to do this if it didn't look like one in the first place. Obviously someone at IDW picked this up tried to see if they could try to justify the act. But as utterly merciless and relentless as Demolishor was, at the time he was completely incapacitated and no longer able to inflict any further harm or damage to anyone.

For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

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Originally Posted by Fonecrusher

Megatron is commiting mass genocide on his own people, the Autobots are on the verge of extinction.

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And yet Optimus Prime vehemently tried his best NOT to kill him (choosing to sacrifice his life over Megatron's (Sam chose the other option)) -- but even then, Megatron was killed in mid-fight, not after he was defeated. Megatron, Bonecrusher, Grindor, Alice etc. were killed in combat, not executed after defeat.

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Originally Posted by Fonecrusher

This is a war, at some point you gotta pick up a gun and start shooting, stop being a victim and start being a soldier.

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Yeah, you shoot at people who are shooting at you. You don't shoot them after the fight is finished.

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Originally Posted by FFN

Unlike everybody else here, I have no problems with Optimus Prime executing Demolishor or Sideswipe slicing Sideways in half. Hey, they Decepticons are invading my planet, and the theme song says "The Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons."

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lol :D

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Originally Posted by FFN

Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you :)

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+1

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Originally Posted by FFN

(Not referring to you specifically) People like to complain that these movies have little to do with Transformers and don't refer to enough Transformery things. The inclusion of the Fallen, even though that was handled poorly (there were some significant changes from earlier drafts of the script which weakened the Fallen's relationship with Megatron among other things), was a pretty huge in-reference to hardcore fans.

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Yeah but I think it was Paulbot who said that the character also needs to make sense and appeal to non-fans too. :/

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Originally Posted by FFN

We saw the rail gun on screen. It was far away and fired. Attackers do not need always need be on screen with their victims, especially with longer-range weapons. That would be bad cinematography.

Check out the science behind rail guns. They hurt very, very much, even to Transformers, who are only invincible to human weapons if you use cartoon or All Hail Megatron story logic.

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The US Navy's Railgun fires a 3.2kg projectile at 2.4km/s, meaning that the rounds land "more swiftly and with little to no warning compared to a volley of Tomahawk cruise missiles."

I agree that it's good that the movies aren't treating the Transformers like Gods. Modern human weapons ARE powerful and can hurt the Transformers... but at the same time, it seemed all too rather convenient that there just happened to be a US Navy vessel in close proximity to the pyramids at that exact time - and Simmons knew about it of course. What luck! Simmons should've bought a Lotto ticket that day.

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

Prime is not a professional soldier. None of the autobots are. They have been forced into war to preserve their way of life. Even if they have been at war for a millenia they are still civilians fighting a war that haven't had the proper training to act professional.

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Yeah sure, most of the Autobots were civilians to start off with, but you'd think after millenia of warfare they would have devised rules of engagement and become a more professional unit. Also, they did have some professional soldiers amongst their ranks like Ironhide - and also, Prime was not that merciless in the first movie.

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

Also what about the fact that Demolisher wouldn't go willingly. He resisted arrest and it took Prime and Ironhide to physically restrain him. Also where would he be incarcerated? He is a war criminal on the run because his leader is dead. Even when he was crippled he didn't even surrender he made threats about "The Fallen" taking over Earth.

I've got no problem with the execution of Demolisher.

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Yeah but all those horrible things he did before he was finally taken down is something that should be dealt with later after he's captured as a POW. And if the Autobots had no means of detaining him, and given that he's refusing to relent, or if he's mortally wounded, then again have someone SAY something to indicate this (like in the comic adaptation).

No matter how brutal or threatening or unrelenting an enemy combatant is, if you kill them after they've been defeated, that's execution which has been considered barbaric since the Middle Ages. For instance, as aggressively violent and hostile as the Black Knight was, and even after he continued threatening and taunting King Arthur after he was defeated, Arthur Pendragon maintained the moral high ground and galloped (coconutted) away.

"Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow b*****ds! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!"

But again no one has complained about the G1 movie where Optimus Prime has Megatron in his sights ready to execute him? To me the only difference between that scene and the execution of Demolisher is Hot Rod ruining it for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

But again no one has complained about the G1 movie where Optimus Prime has Megatron in his sights ready to execute him? To me the only difference between that scene and the execution of Demolisher is Hot Rod ruining it for everyone.

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I recall Optimus walking over slowly picking up his gun and when Megatron made a move, Prime raised quickly it to point at him to make him stop, a "freeze or I'll shoot". He had stopped Megatron, which is what he had set out to do. Megatron had fallen and he stood in victory, and despite how angry Prime would have been (with the death and destruction Megatron had caused at Autobot City) he didn't appear to be in a hurry to kill Megatron.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I recall Optimus walking over slowly picking up his gun and when Megatron made a move, Prime raised quickly it to point at him to make him stop, a "freeze or I'll shoot". He had stopped Megatron, which is what he had set out to do. Megatron had fallen and he stood in victory, and despite how angry Prime would have been (with the death and destruction Megatron had caused at Autobot City) he didn't appear to be in a hurry to kill Megatron.

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I have the DVD in my work laptop and have it on as background noise at least twice a week while I do purchase orders. The scene happens as follows
Kup "Finish him off Prime! Do it now"
A wounded Optimus Prime slowly (because he is wounded) over to his rifle and picks it up. Walks towards Megatron and rises his rifle.
Megatron "Grant me mercy Optimus Prime. I beg of you" slowly crawls for concealed weapon
Optimus Prime (tensing up- I presume ready to fire. Anyone who has fired a real weapon knows that you do brace yourself for recoil) "You who are with out mercy now plead for it? I thought you were made of sterner stuff."

Cue Hot Rod to ruin it all.

Not much difference if youu ask me.:rolleyes:

Even so, with Megatron's attack on the city we had just watched many beloved Autobots (Ironhide, Wheeljack, Prowl, Ratchet) killed so the audience wouldn't have been too upset if Prime had pulled the trigger.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up. Regardless of what post-movie comics might have given Demolisher as backstory, the audience hadn't built up any anger towards the character that made us feel he deserved to die. And that's a film making decision. If the Autobots had arrived to a scene where hundreds were dead due to this Decepticon's rampage it would have been more acceptable in film terms to see the character killed.

The difference is that G1 Prime didn't actually pull the trigger. It could be argued that he was sorely tempted and maybe thought about executing Megatron, but the fact is that he didn't. For example in Revenge of the Sith Anakin Skywalker had a defeated Count Dooku at his mercy with two light sabres against his neck. At that point he became morally torn -- his Jedi training telling him not to kill Dooku, but Palpatine goading Anakin to kill him. In the end Anakin gave into the Dark Side (for a moment) and killed Dooku - although immediately after that he acknowledged that it was the wrong thing to do as he was an unarmed and defeated opponent ("It's not the Jedi way.").

Had Anakin had the fortitude to resist Palpatine's temptation and not kill Dooku, then who knows - he may never have embarked on his journey to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader. Luke Skywalker managed to succeed here were Anakin failed -- defeating Vader with his hand chopped off, Luke had the perfect opportunity to kill Vader. Palpatine even told him to kill his father and replace him as the new Sith, but Luke threw his light sabre away and chose the moral high ground telling the Emperor that he had failed to turn him to the Dark Side (so then the Emperor decided to kill Luke).

And I've never been the biggest fan of G1 cartoon Prime, aside from being a one-dimensional archetype (as many G1 cartoon characters are), he was often contradictory in his standards anyway, even before Transformers the Movie. Optimus Prime supposedly believes in freedom being the right of all sentient beings, yet when the Dinobots were created and proved to be troublesome because of their limited intelligence, Optimus Prime ordered that the Dinobots be shut down and indefinitely imprisoned by burying them in a cavern! What?!? (o_O) There was NO discussion about how to rehabilitate or assist the Dinobots, simply, that they "must never be activated again!" Nice.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up.

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Pretty much. It's like say when Coalition forces found Saddam Hussein in hiding... imagine if the soldiers who found him decided to execute him there and then.

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Originally Posted by FFN

Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you :)

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

+1

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-2 :D If you guys don't want him, I'll take Welkertron anyday!

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

Not much difference if youu ask me.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

Even so, with Megatron's attack on the city we had just watched many beloved Autobots (Ironhide, Wheeljack, Prowl, Ratchet) killed so the audience wouldn't have been too upset if Prime had pulled the trigger.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up. Regardless of what post-movie comics might have given Demolisher as backstory, the audience hadn't built up any anger towards the character that made us feel he deserved to die. And that's a film making decision. If the Autobots had arrived to a scene where hundreds were dead due to this Decepticon's rampage it would have been more acceptable in film terms to see the character killed.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

The difference is that G1 Prime didn't actually pull the trigger.
[snip]
For example in Revenge of the Sith Anakin Skywalker had a defeated Count Dooku at his mercy with two light sabres against his neck. [snip]In the end Anakin gave into the Dark Side (for a moment) and killed Dooku - although immediately after that he acknowledged that it was the wrong thing to do as he was an unarmed and defeated opponent ("It's not the Jedi way.").

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Yeah, I agree with PB and GP. It's totally different IMO. I've never read any "extra material" for ROTF (shouldn't have to in order to watch a film :rolleyes:) and I have no idea why Prime killed him - except for because (apparently) he's doing bad things??? :confused: Ridiculous! In TF:TM the audience has seen Megatron personally slaughter Ironhide, Brawn and many others, not to mention leading an attack which has seen the deaths of countless others. We, as an audience, rally behind a champion to put a stop to this merciless killing spree. It's made even more tragic by the fact Prime fails... Megatron still (cunning as ever) secretly crawls towards the gun, raising the tension and ultimately kills Prime. It's a perfect cinematic moment... set the audience up for one thing (Prime saves the day) only to pull the rug out from underneath (Hot Rod gets in the way, Megs wins, Prime dies). It's more unexpected and tragic... Prime could have (and should have) ended it immediately, but he hesitated... and it cost him his life. He died a hero, instead of living and looking like an a$$ in ROTF. It's these subtle character elements that make us love characters or hate them. How many American action films, for example, have you seen where the hero has a chance to kill the villain but instead shows pity... only to have the baddie pull out a hidden weapon from his shoe, which causes the hero to fire a reactive shot! BANG! He's a hero... he didn't kill the guy in cold blood, he was only reacting to the bad guy's sneaky attack!

At the end of the day, it's all moot anyway. We're arguing about whether or not Prime has certain characteristics. The reality is, ROTF Prime was a construct of Michael Bay's direction... a guy who doesn't know or care enough about Transformers and their history anyway!

What exactly was Prime's choice? It's not like Demolisher had an "off" switch. If Prime didn't kill him, someone else would have to, lest he continue demolishing things!

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Even just within the movie universe it's a contradiction. As I said, TF1 Prime showed compassion -- he only killed Bonecrusher as he was fighting him (i.e. it was NOT an execution), and he expressed regret that Megatron died at the end. Prime's attitude in Shanghai flies against what we saw in Mission City. Is it the same Optimus Prime?

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as goki and others have pointed out like in the above situations in TF1 and TF2 time has passed between the two events and who knows what has happened to prime and his mindset in that time especially in times of war it can change people alot, thats the way i see it anyway

anyway i'll go see DOTM my expectations will be low but as long as its better than TF2 i'll be happy although it shouldnt be that hard to surpass :p

As Doubledealer said, this isn't a G1 remake. Try to forget what you know. G1 Optimus isn't the same as Movie Optimus. The audience came to see an action movie. If the Autobots didn't fire a bullet and took every decepticon they encountered hostage, or let them go, it would be a pretty boring movie.

The first movie taught everyone (the general public) that Autobots = good, Decepticons = bad. They fought on Cybertron and they'll fight here. If you haven't liked the way the Autobots presented themselves in the last movie, then you sure won't like the next movie. Take no prisoners.:cool:

See, I didn't like the 1st Bay movie and haven't seen RotF besides the chase and execution scene, but I am quite looking forward to DotM. Why?
For the toys.
RotF was, by all account, a craptastic movie for all the reasons listed here and more, but it gave us some awesome toys. Ransack/Divebomb, Ejector (I mean, a toaster TF? How cool is that?), Full-o'-guns Ironhide, Bludgeon (well, sorta), Brawn, the Ice-cream twins (the characters might suck but an ice-cream truck alt-mode is pretty sweet) - while they're mostly non-movie characters we did get a few gems out of this. Add to this some of the Leader-class ones I haven't picked up like Buster Prime and Leader Starscream and it's been a pretty decent toyline. I'd still prefer Animated or Classicsverse anyday and Prime looks rather interesting, but RotF still gave us a sweet haul of plasticy goodness.
And from what we've seen so far DotM is going to be even better. If we have to suffer another crappy Bay movie to get a sweet snowmobile scout, or a new Powerglide, so be it says I. I just hope the movie is even worse so I can get really smashed one day and laugh at it.

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Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat

What exactly was Prime's choice? It's not like Demolisher had an "off" switch. If Prime didn't kill him, someone else would have to, lest he continue demolishing things!

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"You left me no choice brother." - Optimus Prime (Transformers, 2007)

Again, a simple line to indicate that he regretted this action would have helped make this clear to the audience. The way it was portrayed arguably almost made it look like Prime was revelling in the task at hand. As Paulbot pointed out, the comic adaptation of ROTF handled this better.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

As Doubledealer said, this isn't a G1 remake. Try to forget what you know. G1 Optimus isn't the same as Movie Optimus.

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Fine, but even if we ONLY looked at Movie Prime we can still see contradictions. In the first movie Optimus Prime expressed deep regret over the fact that Megatron was killed in the Mission City battle. He killed Bonecrusher in the middle of combat, NOT as an execution. Thus to see Optimus Prime execute Demolishor in ROTF contradicts the way that Prime was portrayed in the first movie.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

The audience came to see an action movie. If the Autobots didn't fire a bullet and took every decepticon they encountered hostage, or let them go, it would be a pretty boring movie.

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I don't see how any of that justifies the execution. All they needed to do was have him say something like, "I wish there was another way," and then shoot Demolishor. The audience still gets the gratification of seeing Prime pop a 'con, and at the same time not be concerned about seeing a massive contradictory shift in the character.

Remember that it's character development that drives a story. Crappy character development = crappy story-telling (re: narrative).

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

The first movie taught everyone (the general public) that Autobots = good, Decepticons = bad. They fought on Cybertron and they'll fight here.

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So what? See my previous analogies about Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

If you haven't liked the way the Autobots presented themselves in the last movie, then you sure won't like the next movie. Take no prisoners.:cool:

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You must be a big fan of Dai Atlas then. Actually, I like Dai Atlas too... there's nothing wrong with the "take no prisoners" policy per se... prior to the Middle Ages it was standard practice to either slaughter POWs or make them into slaves.

What irks me here though is the character-contradiction. If I saw G1 Dai Atlas mercilessly slaying Decepticons, okay fine - I can accept that. That's a long established character trait (even if most Japanese fans hate him for it)... but considering that in TF1 we saw OP say stuff like "Freedom is the right of ALL sentient beings" (not just Autobots) and then "You left me no choice, brother" -- it strongly establishes OP as this compassionate character who regrets the use of violence and lethal force (and only does so out of necessity). TF1 also portrayed OP as one who utterly refused to sacrifice his high moral values, as seen with his plan to unite the AllSpark with his own Spark should he fail to stop Megatron. The OP we saw in Shanghai felt like a completely different character. An OP who's willing to execute a defeated Decepticon foe would surely NOT hesitate to shove the AllSpark into Megatron's chest himself, let alone express regret after Sam had done it.

Also, even if Movie Optimus Prime is a different character from other Optimus Primes, if Michael Bay had respect for the character and the franchise he would be mindful of what the character is meant to be. Imagine how Batman fans would feel if they made a movie where Batman packed heat and just shot the baddies like the Punisher. The Dark Knight would have turned out a lot differently if he'd just shot the Joker. You could argue that ya know, it's a movie franchise so it's a different universe blah blah blah, but I can bet you a LOT of Batman fans would be urinated.

Really Gok comparing Hitler and Hussein to Transformers?

You don't think you are over analysing this a touch?:rolleyes:

Hells no!

Anyway...

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

It's like say when Coalition forces found Saddam Hussein in hiding... imagine if the soldiers who found him decided to execute him there and then.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

What irks me here though is the character-contradiction. If I saw G1 Dai Atlas mercilessly slaying Decepticons, okay fine - I can accept that. That's a long established character trait (even if most Japanese fans hate him for it)... but considering that in TF1 we saw OP say stuff like "Freedom is the right of ALL sentient beings" (not just Autobots) and then "You left me no choice, brother" -- it strongly establishes OP as this compassionate character who regrets the use of violence and lethal force (and only does so out of necessity). TF1 also portrayed OP as one who utterly refused to sacrifice his high moral values, as seen with his plan to unite the AllSpark with his own Spark should he fail to stop Megatron. The OP we saw in Shanghai felt like a completely different character. An OP who's willing to execute a defeated Decepticon foe would surely NOT hesitate to shove the AllSpark into Megatron's chest himself, let alone express regret after Sam had done it.

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Maybe it was an evil clone Prime Problem style.:p Possible plot thread for DotM!

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Also, even if Movie Optimus Prime is a different character from other Optimus Primes, if Michael Bay had respect for the character and the franchise...

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BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

Really Gok comparing Hitler and Hussein to Transformers?

You don't think you are over analysing this a touch?:rolleyes:

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Y'know, I've never seen Goki and Megan Fox in the same room at the same time...hmm...:p

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Y'know, I've never seen Goki and Megan Fox in the same room at the same time...hmm...:p

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No need to get jealous.




There's plenty of Goki to go around. ;)

So much over-analysing of what is essentially a 2 hour advertisement for:
1. The US military,
2. G.M. &
3. Hasbro Transformers (in that order).

This comic springs to mind whenever i see discussions like this

http://australian-postcodes.com/2011...rpherspcoe.jpg

LOL:D

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For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

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Back then, i'd say 99% chance they would of placed a bullet in his head, and i would do the same. Waste of time and money putting him on trial, just like 99% of todays criminals.

The movies are getting over-analysed and compared to old-school TF. 90% of the audience probably haven't seen G1 so they don't care if Prime doesn't have a heart. Kids these days want tough good-guys, not by-the-book heroes. We don't what prime went through in-between movies. Maybe he was tortured by Demolisher so this was payback, or maybe there was a bounty out on his head for his death. All this shows us is that Prime is serious and wants the Decepticons gone or dead. Yes he's changed since the first movie but that's life. Move along.

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Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat

This comic springs to mind whenever i see discussions like this

<snip>

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+5 internets to you sir

I never thought I'd write this but her goes,

ROFL. LMAO.

that is a cracker.

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Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy

My issue was that it's a massive cop out, lets have the biggest con ever, that would make an awesome fight! But instead they snuffed him with an with a pew pew cannon. It was BORING.

Surely no one enjoyed seeing a cannon (regardless of location) kill devastator. It's the new definition of anti-climax.

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I thought the rail gun was awesome, because rail guns are awesome. Movie Devastator kinda sucked so I didn't mind him dying to it terribly.

I've seen some comments from that time from non-fans who were like "HOLY CRAP DID YOU SEE THAT RAIL GUN? THAT WAS AWESOME!"

Considering the rendering of the Devastator character was so memory intensive that it actually destroyed computers at ILM, I'd imagine that it was necessary for it to be destroyed so easily, because a full-on fight scene wouldn't have been possible to render.

BTW, if 1986 Optimus were just as callous towards Megatron as 2009 Optimus was to Demolishor, he would have shot him as soon as he pointed his rifle at him, instead of covering him like police do of a surrendering offender... long enough in fact for Megatron to stall and grab a weapon. IMO

I love that this thread began with "I don't wan't to start a fight but...", and here we are 7 pages and many LOLs later.

From reading these posts, I conclude that the movies are the shattered glass universe. The Autobots are clearly the bad guys, they remorselessly kill many, many Decepticons over the course of the films. The Decepticons only kill Jazz and wound Jetfire. And to be fair, Megs wasn't thinking straight when he killed Jazz. He just woke up after being frozen in ice for years, and probably had one hell of an ice-cream headache.

The Decepticons allegedly start a civil war on their home planet, but who tells us this? Prime does. That's the evil Autobot propaganda machine at work fellas. Don't trust the lies! The lies!

I'd consider ILM's claims that rendering Devastator "destroyed" computers to be hyperbole for the sake of marketing hype. To my knowledge, modern desktop computers, unless they are very poorly ventilated and poorly designed, will usually automatically shut down if heat becomes a dangerous, critical issue.

I'd expect ILM's renderfarms to have these basic self-preservation features, and be housed in climate-controlled conditions.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

The movies are getting over-analysed and compared to old-school TF. 90% of the audience probably haven't seen G1 so they don't care if Prime doesn't have a heart.

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But even if you'd never heard of Transformers before seeing the movies, ROTF Prime still has a contradictory character shift from TF1 which doesn't seem to make sense.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

Kids these days want tough good-guys, not by-the-book heroes.

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I don't agree. You have your archetypal heroes (e.g. Superman, Captain America etc.) and you have anti-heroes (e.g. Batman, Wolverine etc.). Optimus Prime is traditionally meant to be a hero -- the Messiah Archetype. The movie universe retained a lot of this aspect with Prime's repeated compunction to sacrifice himself (e.g. wanting to merge the Cube with his chest, sacrificing himself to save Sam in the forest). So in many ways the movies establish Prime as a hero, not an antihero... yet what he did in Shanghai was more of an antiheroic act. Now if movie writers want to establish Optimus Prime as an antihero in their universe, okay... just do it. The issue I'm raising here is that MOVIE Optimus Prime (ignoring all other Optimus Primes) is heroic in the first movie and for most of ROTF... then he decides to execute Demolishor. Right.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

We don't what prime went through in-between movies. Maybe he was tortured by Demolisher so this was payback,

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Cos revenge is such a heroic trait. For the record, DemolishOr never tortured Prime. Demolishor certainly was a mass-murdering terror during the Cybertronian wars as he was a shock trooper who specifically set out to slaughter settlements of Autobot refugees. One of the few (if only) survivors of his onslaught was Sideswipe.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

or maybe there was a bounty out on his head for his death.

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Not as far as we know.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

All this shows us is that Prime is serious and wants the Decepticons gone or dead.

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Yes but the Optimus Prime we knew from the first movie would only kill if he felt there were no other option.

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Originally Posted by shokwave2

Yes he's changed since the first movie but that's life. Move along.

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Unexplained/illogical character change = BAD story telling.

You can have characters change, but they need to explained to the audience. For example:
1: Anakin Skywalker.
Phantom Menace = selfless innocent child... separated from mother
Attack of the Clones = frustrated gifted youth who has feelings of greed (re: being held back) and attachment (re: mother)
Revenge of the Sith = feelings for attachment (re: Padme) and feelings of impotency lead to his fall to the Dark Side

2: Frodo Baggins
A naive and innocent youth whose contact with the One Ring gradually instills him with greed (it could have eventually made him like Gollum if he'd kept it long enough)

If they want to change Optimus Prime from being a hero (as seen in the first movie) to an antihero, then the audience deserves an explanation. It's just basic story-telling.

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Originally Posted by Oilspill

The Autobots are clearly the bad guys, they remorselessly kill many, many Decepticons over the course of the films.

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There's a big difference between killing an enemy combatant in the middle of a fight, and executing a P.O.W.

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Originally Posted by Oilspill

The Decepticons only kill Jazz and wound Jetfire. And to be fair, Megs wasn't thinking straight when he killed Jazz. He just woke up after being frozen in ice for years, and probably had one hell of an ice-cream headache.

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Jazz was attacking Megatron when he got killed. Jazz presented Megatron with lethal force and Megatron returned in kind. Jazz was KIA as a soldier... he was not an executed captive.

Back onto DOTM which I believe was the original point of this thread, One thing I am excited about is the wreckers. A couple of things have taken some of the excitement away from me.

-I thought the wreckers would be like the awesome commando group thats why their alt modes were armed to the teeth. Since seeing Bumblebee with just as many guns it almost seems to take that something special away from them.

-Their robot modes. Having seen some toy images of the bot modes making them look like redneck NASCAR fans. Mullets, beards, it even appears that Leadfoot has a beer gut for crying out loud.

There are many liberties that Michael Bay takes with the Transformers franchise that I have let slide because I am a fan of the movies. This however is not ok IMO. The wreckers are commandos. Seeing these bot modes makes me think they'll be redneck cowboys that will rush in and get themselves killed.

On that thought I do think they need autobot casualties to make it more real since the Decepticons are the fighters and the autobots aren't. I remember thinking after ROTF "Hang on not one autobot died in that. If the autobots could handle the cons this easily wouldn't the war have ended a long time ago?"

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Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy

Hot dog! We have a wiener!

No doubt hasbro loosened the strings when their purse was bursting at the seams thanks to Bay.

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+1 yep he's raking in the cash why spoil it ei? Hasbro is after all gonna need cash to keep on going globally.

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Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy

My hatred was rather well documented at the SA meets (Ranting lunatic is probably an understatement)
My general distaste for ROTF can be summed up as such.
Devastator was killed by an off-screen cannon.

OFF
SCREEN
CANNON

Weak man, f'ing weak.

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Guess they havent yet earned enough dough to "invest" on wide screen cameras:p... blame it on the director...oh wait everyone already does heheh

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Originally Posted by Doubledealer

Guys, guys, guys....This isn't your daddy's Transformers. It's a different interpretation of the Transformers universe including changes to certain characters personalities (look at Jetfire ferchrisakes!), so if you can't handle that then I suggest going home and crying to mumma. :p

I don't actually believe Prime was being unbotmane anyway. He basically had to totally **** Demolishor up before he would stop killing you, your family and your little pet Catilla too. What was he meant to do with the fubar, no doubt beyond repair Demolishor once he was finally stopped? "Oh come on guys, he's 10 times our height and weighs the same as a small country but come on, let's muck together and carry him home where we can start on the repairs!" *cue BB shooting himself in the face*

Yes, the execution itself may have seemed a bit psycho at the time but Prime's all about saving humanity and just witnessed hundreds of human lives go down the proverbial. Can you blame him for being a bit pissed?

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+++1 why bother lugging the big thug, just blam hmand get the useable parts;)... wouldnt want that tech going into the hands of the primitive flesh creatures with the great capacity for war, right... I support Bayprime on this... it's war people not a playdate... killing is part of war. Best cannon ever IMO they shouldve made a toy for it, Id get one.

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

DEMOLISHOR: I know you're not going to kill me, Optimus. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, right?

<BLAM!>

PRIME: Now you're free, bitch.

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Heck yeah!! You never know that might be prime's ( this one version) interpretation of his "motto" when applied to 'cons after all he is "alien". Who can say that isnt how he interprets it. Warpath is his best bud.:D:D



Though it wouldve been nice to have tortured him first for more info of what he was ranting about this "fallen" guy...ah well. oh and Jetfire's still a decepticon - who happens to help them so yeah ... Thanks old guy (Prime in his mind thinking silently, mebbe) you served your purpose ( then Prime discrads the used up husk of Jetfire heheheh) but IM IN THE MIDDLE OF GETTING A BUTT KICKING FIGHT TO WORRY ABOUT YOUR BODY PARTS GETTING ITS DUE. After that, well not that interesting enough to warrant a whole scene added to the film, so mebbe that's been edited out by Bay - after all an honorary funeral wouldve been "weak" in his "directorial eyes" seeing as there's no ""SPLOSIONS" .... ROTF is a weak film with little plot for profit purposes guys deal with it otherwise go be G1 Ultramagnus' drinking buddy.

DOTM - no Im not excited,Ill go see it once the DVD comes out cheaply.... I watched ROTF on he last week of it in theater's when I was soooo bored at home and needed to get out, ended up sleeping on some parts of the movie - particularly the desert running , running,running,running so freakishly slowmo you want to shoot them and be done with it. Oh also just FYI you dont use the "paddles" to someone who flatlines, you do CPR.... but then that wouldnt be as dramatic and all that.... again this DOTM movie is as ever will be a "weak film with little plot for profit purposes" so No Im not excited.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

But even if you'd never heard of Transformers before seeing the movies, ROTF Prime still has a contradictory character shift from TF1 which doesn't seem to make sense.

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It doesn't need to make sense, the movie is about giant transforming robots.

What % of the movie goers would even compare primes character from the first movie to the second? I loved it - finally prime had the guts to get rid of a decepticon instead of sitting their waiting for the deception to finish talking and then let him make his escape for anyother day g1 style.

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

ROTF is a weak film with little plot for profit purposes guys deal with it otherwise go be G1 Ultramagnus' drinking buddy.

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Hooray! Thread won.

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Originally Posted by Skullcruncher

It doesn't need to make sense, the movie is about giant transforming robots.

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*sigh* This is a big problem with Michael Bay's mentality -- seeing the Transformers as set pieces (re: giant transforming robots) rather than treating them as characters (which is what better TF writers like Simon Furman does).

Just because it's Transformers does NOT mean we should lower our expectations and excuse poorly written stories. Transformers has had a long history of excellent stories written for it (e.g. Target: 2006, Time Wars, Beast Wars, Last Stand of the Wreckers et al.). I can totally forgive changing certain things about Transformers to give it a mass-market appeal, fine... I get that. It's where Transformers: The Movie failed because it was too fan-centric. But having a broad appeal doesn't mean you have to make it "mindless."

There are plenty of other fantasy/scifi franchises out there which have been adapted to movies and been successful in the mainstream while still being fairly true to the spirit of that franchise (e.g. Lord of the Rings, X-Men, The Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter etc.). And I think the first Transformers movie succeeded in doing this... for the most part it did capture the spirit of the G1 cartoon quite well. But I thought that ROTF started straying away from this, and I would personally like to see DOTM go back to this.

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Originally Posted by Skullcruncher

What % of the movie goers would even compare primes character from the first movie to the second? I loved it - finally prime had the guts to get rid of a decepticon instead of sitting their waiting for the deception to finish talking and then let him make his escape for anyother day g1 style.

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Oh yes, because killing a HELPLESS defeated foe is totally courageous. (-_-)
Make his escape?? He was incapacitated. He was in no condition to leg it - and probably would have died from his wounds, thus killing him straight away might have been more merciful (and if so, this should have been stated - as it was in the comic adaptation of ROTF, which I believe was written by Furman IIRC).

What you're talking about is more like what Dai Atlas did in Transformers Zone. Dai Atlas would cut down Decepticons rather than letting them escape and come back another day.

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Originally Posted by Skullcruncher

Hooray! Thread won.

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Yay, not having standards makes everything feel better! :D

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

*sigh* This is a big problem with Michael Bay's mentality -- seeing the Transformers as set pieces (re: giant transforming robots) rather than treating them as characters (which is what better TF writers like Simon Furman does).

Oh yes, because killing a HELPLESS defeated foe is totally courageous. (-_-)
Make his escape?? He was incapacitated. He was in no condition to leg it - and probably would have died from his wounds, thus killing him straight away might have been more merciful (and if so, this should have been stated - as it was in the comic adaptation of ROTF, which I believe was written by Furman IIRC).

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*sigh* here comes the blame Michael Bay train again.

:rolleyes: if the writers had wanted prime to show mercy there was plenty of time for them to add something in.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Yay, not having standards makes everything feel better! :D

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Its more like some 'fans' take transformers way too seriously. Like it or dont like it - Harping on about something is not going to change it.

Sooo, to answer the top of the thread, love and hate, aspects of the last two movies, I'm still pumped for number 3. there will probably be bits I don't like but It's still Transformers and with that there is always great potential, you never know, maybe this time Michael Bay picked up on some feedback from the last one.

I'm keen. Hasbro is certainly excited about it.:D