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I agree that's what he tried to do, and while doing it completely failed to understand (or understood and didn't care) that what he was doing was buying into over a century of racist stereotypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionPax
It's the Black and White Minstrel show with robots.
Seriously, I think you should go back and read this thread in more detail before you post statements like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull
I'm not going to sit here and paraphrase everyone's POV on this subject (including mine), suffice it to say that I was not personally offended by the Twins... but I can see how some people around the world were. I think anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence and compassion would be able to discern the racial subtext and empathise with those who feel insulted, even if they don't necessarily agree.
The key issue is context, which SofaMan explained comprehensively 3 posts back.
Agreed! Ignorance is not a defence for Bay.Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaManI agree that's what he tried to do, and while doing it completely failed to understand (or understood and didn't care) that what he was doing was buying into over a century of racist stereotypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionPax
It's the Black and White Minstrel show with robots.
It's as if Bay was trying to make the twins "gangsta" but instead gave us Autobot Amos and Andy. :p
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...higa_pwned.jpg
i read the article, pretty interesting, especially the examples, since im a fan of loony toons and bugs bunny.
white people incorporate black culture (music, look, slang etc) into their own personality because they like it and want to emulate it. from what i see the twins doing by acting black in the movie, its the same concept, they have come to earth and adopted "black" personality because they thinks its cool and they want to emulate it. i honestly dont think it was the twins or creators (writters/directors/ animators) intention of adopting black personality as an insult to black people.
and other characters in the movie such a wheelie and jetfire being based on stereotypes, i thought they were awesome. i love them both as characters. im part italian and didnt get offended by wheelie being the joe pesci of transformers or jetfire being and old scottish like my girlfriends grandad i thought it was cool that he had that personality.
and my statement about dont like it dont watch it, for me still stands and no amount of arguing will convince me otherwise, (i stand by it so dont bother attacking me on that)
So if I want to admire American black culture, I have to celebrate illiteracy?
But the twins aren't "acting black"; they aren't acting at all. They haven't "chosen" to adopt a "black personality" (you may like to think about what that actually means - e.g. how would you define a "white personality"?), because they are characters who are not real. Their dialogue and spoken mannerisms were created by writers, their appearances were developed by concept artists and animators. They are celluloid fantasies with no volition, only the appearance of such they were given by their creators. This is critical to understanding the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull
Since you've read the article, I'm going to draw out a specific quote that I think has relevance, particularly to your claim that the creators "didn't intend" the characters to be racist (emphasis mine):
Racism is rarely shown by characters getting into their KKK duds and lynching a few black people. Racism is usually far more subtle:Quote:
Here I quote an article by Sandy Cohen, of the Associated Press.
Hollywood has a track record of using negative stereotypes of black characters for comic relief, said Todd Boyd, a professor of popular culture at the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts, who has not seen the "Transformers" sequel.
"There's a history of people getting laughs at the expense of African-Americans and African-American culture," Boyd said. "These images are not completely divorced from history even though it's a new movie and even though they're robots and not humans."
American cinema also has a tendency to deal with race indirectly, said Allyson Nadia Field, an assistant professor of cinema and media studies at the University of California, Los Angeles.
"There's a persistent dehumanization of African-Americans throughout Hollywood that displaces issues of race onto non-human entities," said Field, who also hasn't seen the film. "It's not about skin color or robot color. It's about how their actions and language are coded racially."
If these characters weren't animated and instead played by real black actors, "then you might have to admit that it's racist," Robinson said. "But stick it into a robot's mouth, and it's just a robot, it's OK."
I have noticed one thing throughout this thread; it's subtle and implicit, but it's there. Those of us here (which is most of us) are very invested in Transformers; we want it to be successful, and seen by others as a success. That success for many of us validates a chunk of our lives. As a result, we sometimes try to defend the indefensible because we feel like if we don't, we're not "sticking up for Transformers", and thereby not sticking up for a part of ourselves. It actually took me several weeks to feel okay about coming out and saying that I really didn't like RotF - I wanted to, I tried to use those few impressive moments in the film to convince myself that I did like it. But the more I thought about it, the more I felt I couldn't justify those few entertaining moments outweighing the disgraceful portrayals of women, black people, and Autobots generally (they seemed to take more glee in killing than the Decepticons did).Quote:
Racism’s influence is pervasive, adaptive, and malignant. That’s how it survives. It is about, division, control, and bondage.
I think it is important to be counted among those who do not support or defend Michael Bay's intolerant and jaundiced vision of what Transformers is. I will validate my love of Transformers by standing up for those parts that reflect something worthy about the human experience.
This absolutely nails what I was talking about in my last post. Thanks kup.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
I like ROTF in spite of its flaws. There's been subtle racism since G1 (e.g.: suggestions of Autobots & Decepticons as separate races, one inherently good the other evil; one reason why I'm not fond of the blue-red eye division between Autobots and Decepticons in the G1 cartoon :/) but I still love Transformers in spite of it. Ditto The Lord of the Rings and many such fantasy lore which I enjoy despite in-built prejudices (why are there no evil elves or good orcs?).
And to give ROTF some credit, it did work against in-built racism when Jetfire (and Wheelie) defected and Jetfire explicitly explained that being an Autobot or Decepticon was a conscious and deliberate choice (and therefore not a "racial" thing). It's a shame that this is undone by the Twins and also by the whole "blue eye red eye" division (although Frenzy had blue eyes!).
But what's been done is done. I wonder what writers can do to salvage the twins in the next movie. What would you do? Visually I suppose there isn't much - their look has already been established. I would try to tone down or remove all the negative black stereotypes and try to push them toward more positive ones. If Bay truly intended for the Twins to be gangsta then let's make them gangsta! That was what Jazz was more like and there wasn't anything racially villifying about that character... other than ya know, being the first Autobot to get killed. :p
Transformers 3: Robot House - Skids and Mudflap go to College.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Oh, wait, positive stereotypes...:p
Not to mention it was also undone by the fact that Jetfire farted a parachute and Wheelie humped Megan Fox's leg!! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Good ol' Bay... anytime any characters start showing some substance, he makes them do something which undermines it and disengages the audience!
But another key issue here is that it WAS insulting, even if it was done through ignorance!Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingBull
Here's another more recent example...
The following story is hitting the news at the moment and apparently attracting worldwide condemnation of Australia as a racist country... Now, I didn't see it myself, and I've only seen the reports... but last night this "blackfaces" skit was on the Hey Hey it's Saturday Reunion. Watch the clip, read the article, and listen to the American's opinion of it all!
Not strictly related, but certainly plays to similar issues. Seems there was a controversy on Red Faces last night.
I do love some of the comments though - "The guy was Indian, so how could it be racist?!" :rolleyes:
Beat you to it SofaMan! ;)
I've posted a link to the video itself too, so people can watch and judge for themselves.
By mere seconds... :p
I still don't get the offended thing. It is not my job to prevent other people from feeling negative things. If they want to be offended, they will be, and there is something in them that validates that feeling. If they didn't need that, they would not be offended. It's about time people started taking responsibility for their own feelings rather than projecting responsibility onto others, including the media, "role models", peer groups etc.
As for celebrating illiteracy, look at any mainstream film where the "cool" people shun education and celebrate "coolness", success by diminishing others, etc. This is a fact of the media. Anyone who celebrates education is labelled a nerd, an outcast, etc. Now, people can either accept that or reject that, and in doing so choose whether they should be offended or not.
If the media is to be blamed for promoting prejudice, it is the consumption of that media which validates it. Just because some movie robots are interpreted by some as being racially prejudiced (which I personally did not see until I heard others complaining) does not mean I am going to be prejudiced against African-Americans, gangstas or whatever they were trying to be.
I saw Mudflap as a hero, resilient and competent, for the way he punished Devastator, and the rest of his character was bluster and role-playing, like most people do. Sure, these aren't real people who made this choice, they in my view the Twins represent real people who make that choice.
Forcing people to change their views or take responsibility for what you are feeling can be just as offensive as the reasons for the offence taken by the first person.
Having said that, I too am disappointed in the way the movies are turning out, but the comics have shown oppressive, genocidal Autobots for some time, and this was, after all, a "blockbuster", not a fan film.
I can see why people see the twins as racially offensive but I personally did not take it as such. However I am more offended at the toilet humor and soft porn shots.
Having said that, Bay is smart enough to know that his creations, 'the twins' would cause unwanted controversy.
And there's been Autobot oppression and genocide in the G1 cartoon as well.
e.g.
+ S.O.S. Dinobots: Optimus Prime authorises the creation of the Dinobots, but when they turn out to be violent brutes, he decides to imprison them in a cave - forever! So much for freedom being the right of all sentient beings eh. (although the Dinobots at the time were arguably semi-sentient)
+ Dai Atlas: _extremely_ violent and genocidal Autobot commander! Kinda reminds me of Lancelot from Monty Python and the Holy Grail; "He killed my auntie!" (yeah okay, Lancelot was more blindly homicidal rather than genocidal - genocide requires discriminate killing whereas Lancelot was very much indiscriminate in his destruction :D)
I don't think Bay had previous fictional lore in mind when he created the twins.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
The term "blackface" is being thrown around a lot in the media atm following that controversial Hey Hey skit. But anyway, here is the wiki article about it if anyone wants to read about its history.
Here's another can of worms: are the twins (or at least one of them) also homophobic? One line that one of the twins (I think it's Mudflap) says to Leo Spitz as he's having a whinge is something along of the lines of "Go cry to your boyfriend."
Is this a homophobic comment? It was delivered as a response to Leo demonstrating weakness, thus implying that any person visibly showing such heightened emotions (i.e.: being a "pussy" as one of the twins also called him) must be homosexual, and therefore implying that homosexuals are highly strung emotional people who are arguably weak in fortitude. In short it's playing along with the gay "queen" stereotype and also using homosexuality as a synonym for stupidity/negativity (as it's like saying to Leo, "Don't be so gay.").
I'd have to agree that it is homophobic. It's just one more tick on the List of Wrong that the twins represent. The nearest to a defense that you can come to for the twins is they are not presented as being particularly competent, considerate or experienced, and consequently not figures to emulate. They are however portrayed (well, attempted) as being funny/likeable, which kind of undoes their un-emulatability.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Michael Bay is an asshat. I mean, I knew he was an asshat before the first movie, but he delivered the goods that time. It's almost like he was getting us to let our guard down so he could blind and horrify us with asshattery the second time round.
I believe that's called smack talk, it shouldn't be all hugs and kisses.
Voted No, they are just taking on a sterotype like all the other transformers as explained by Prime in the first movie.
I don't think that it was intended to be intentionally homophobic but it does reflect Bay's jock attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Just to clarify it was Skids who said, "Ah, go whine to your boyfriend."
Well it's similar to kids who go around using the word "gay" as a synonym for something stupid/negative without necessarily being consciously aware that it denigrades homosexuals. It seems to be part of Michael Bay's juvenile sense of humour alongside pissing, farting, humping, exposed testicles, random drug use, sexual harassment etc., he's like a child who tries to make these jokes that he sees as funny, some of which borderline being discriminatory, but he seems to lack the maturity to be aware of it or perhaps just doesn't care. In the DVD special features and commentary Bay describes his jokes as things that he finds funny and criticises anyone who doesn't like them as simply being humourles killjoys. This refusal to barely acknowledge criticisms about his jokes can make him appear arrogant.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
That's not to say that there are no funny moments in the movies, but I suspect that the better jokes are the ones made by the writers (Orci & Kurtzman) whereas the tackier ones are from Bay. We know that things like the humping and Devastator's balls were Bay's ideas. Some better humourous moments were like the tanked guy telling Sam to move his car and Sam telling him to find a tighter shirt and the other guy's mate saying that there is no tighter shirt, they've checked. See... that was funny without being crass! Ditto Sam's "time out" with Mikaela in the library. Some of the funnier moments were also just made up by the actors via adlibbing between takes, such as in the first movie when Sam trying to show off his muscles while pointing to things in his car as well as the "Sam's happy time" reference.
He should have said "Go whine to your mum" which would have the intended effect in a less derogatory way.
I didn't really see the twins as racist or homophobic. I saw that comment in particular as the equivalent of calling Leo a girl. As in he's whinging and wining, therefore he's a girl, therefore he has a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Overall I saw the twins as people trying hard to show that they can keep up with the other bigger, cooler Transformers (kinda as it explains in one of their card bios). As a result they trash-talk, over-exert themselves, and generally talk tough, but don't follow through in their actions, until Mudflap fights his way out of Devastators mouth.
So it's sexist then, rather than homophobic? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim Prime
It's a choice between the demon and the devil, but fits better with the bluster and trash talk attitude that Bay gave them rather than trying to bring homophobia into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Shadow
...erm yeah, I'm not sure if misogyny is any better than homophobia. :/
I'm all for having Autobots that aren't all squeaky clean. Even if they are homophobic wiggers. Makes 'em more real as characters IMO.
Even if they are stupid.
I'd argue that Bay puts women and gays in the same moral sphere - whether the Twins are implicitly calling Leo gay, or calling him a woman, it is clear that either of those things is not something you would want to be in BayWorld.
Gay = Bad
Woman = Bad
Black = marginally less bad than gays or women (since they are still all men in this movie), but still largely only useful for wisecracking.
Which wouldn't even bother me so much if there was one other character in the movie who calls them out on their bulls**t. But every other character just lets it slide, like it's a perfectly normal and acceptable way to treat people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy
It was something like the joy I experienced when Judi Dench started playing M in the Bond movies. First time out, she basically calls Bond out for being arrogant, sexist, sociopathic and misogynistic. It was gold, and long overdue.
Or bringing the rain. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaMan
Also agree with what you say of Judi Dench's M. Perhaps if Orci and the other one didn't have to join the writers strike they could have added Prime saying something about Ratchet needing to fix their vocal emitters as well as Bumblebee's.
I don't know if they are, but it doesn't matter. I just don't like them, either their figure in movie or toy, robo mode or car mode, talking or behaving, none of the any aspects I like.
My opinion, they should not have been in movie at all. And they talked too much. And their faces are just ugly.
I don't even want the toy for free.
Early on production, Orci pitched in a fan made suggestion to Bay of having Sunstreaker & Sideswipe vs Runamuck & Runabout in a car chase battle.
It was turned down in favor of the retard twins - Bay was born to direct Transformers.
Damn that would have been awsome a huge 4 car chase battle scene :(
Within the Transformers 07 movie special features DVD disc, Michael Bay did say no more car chase scenes for a while (after filming the Bonecrusher vs. Optimus highway chase) which would have possibly ruled this out for ROTF.
I'm glad he did... he doesn't shoot car chases very well IMO!Quote:
Originally Posted by 5FDP
in Bays defence he doesn't shoot anything well. Except chicks bent over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robzy