POLL: Skids, Mudflap. Racist?

[SofaMan]

Don't think thats racist...It's just Bay trying (and failing) to introduce some 'hip' characters to be popular among children. But I would agree that they are a poor choice on characters.

I agree that's what he tried to do, and while doing it completely failed to understand (or understood and didn't care) that what he was doing was buying into over a century of racist stereotypes.

It's the Black and White Minstrel show with robots.

[Robzy]

oh and PC people there. if you dont like it dont watch it. simple

Seriously, I think you should go back and read this thread in more detail before you post statements like this.

I'm not going to sit here and paraphrase everyone's POV on this subject (including mine), suffice it to say that I was not personally offended by the Twins... but I can see how some people around the world were. I think anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence and compassion would be able to discern the racial subtext and empathise with those who feel insulted, even if they don't necessarily agree.

The key issue is context, which SofaMan explained comprehensively 3 posts back.

Don't think thats racist...It's just Bay trying (and failing) to introduce some 'hip' characters to be popular among children. But I would agree that they are a poor choice on characters.

I agree that's what he tried to do, and while doing it completely failed to understand (or understood and didn't care) that what he was doing was buying into over a century of racist stereotypes.

It's the Black and White Minstrel show with robots.

Agreed! Ignorance is not a defence for Bay.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's as if Bay was trying to make the twins "gangsta" but instead gave us Autobot Amos and Andy.

[RagingBull]

i read the article, pretty interesting, especially the examples, since im a fan of loony toons and bugs bunny.

white people incorporate black culture (music, look, slang etc) into their own personality because they like it and want to emulate it. from what i see the twins doing by acting black in the movie, its the same concept, they have come to earth and adopted "black" personality because they thinks its cool and they want to emulate it. i honestly dont think it was the twins or creators (writters/directors/ animators) intention of adopting black personality as an insult to black people.

and other characters in the movie such a wheelie and jetfire being based on stereotypes, i thought they were awesome. i love them both as characters. im part italian and didnt get offended by wheelie being the joe pesci of transformers or jetfire being and old scottish like my girlfriends grandad i thought it was cool that he had that personality.

and my statement about dont like it dont watch it, for me still stands and no amount of arguing will convince me otherwise, (i stand by it so dont bother attacking me on that)

[kup]

So if I want to admire American black culture, I have to celebrate illiteracy?

[SofaMan]

from what i see the twins doing by acting black in the movie, its the same concept, they have come to earth and adopted "black" personality because they thinks its cool and they want to emulate it. i honestly dont think it was the twins or creators (writters/directors/ animators) intention of adopting black personality as an insult to black people.

But the twins aren't "acting black"; they aren't acting at all. They haven't "chosen" to adopt a "black personality" (you may like to think about what that actually means - e.g. how would you define a "white personality"?), because they are characters who are not real. Their dialogue and spoken mannerisms were created by writers, their appearances were developed by concept artists and animators. They are celluloid fantasies with no volition, only the appearance of such they were given by their creators. This is critical to understanding the issue.

Since you've read the article, I'm going to draw out a specific quote that I think has relevance, particularly to your claim that the creators "didn't intend" the characters to be racist (emphasis mine):

Here I quote an article by Sandy Cohen, of the Associated Press.

Hollywood has a track record of using negative stereotypes of black characters for comic relief, said Todd Boyd, a professor of popular culture at the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts, who has not seen the "Transformers" sequel.

"There's a history of people getting laughs at the expense of African-Americans and African-American culture," Boyd said. "These images are not completely divorced from history even though it's a new movie and even though they're robots and not humans."
American cinema also has a tendency to deal with race indirectly, said Allyson Nadia Field, an assistant professor of cinema and media studies at the University of California, Los Angeles.

"There's a persistent dehumanization of African-Americans throughout Hollywood that displaces issues of race onto non-human entities," said Field, who also hasn't seen the film. "It's not about skin color or robot color. It's about how their actions and language are coded racially."
If these characters weren't animated and instead played by real black actors, "then you might have to admit that it's racist," Robinson said. "But stick it into a robot's mouth, and it's just a robot, it's OK."

Racism is rarely shown by characters getting into their KKK duds and lynching a few black people. Racism is usually far more subtle:

Racism’s influence is pervasive, adaptive, and malignant. That’s how it survives. It is about, division, control, and bondage.

I have noticed one thing throughout this thread; it's subtle and implicit, but it's there. Those of us here (which is most of us) are very invested in Transformers; we want it to be successful, and seen by others as a success. That success for many of us validates a chunk of our lives. As a result, we sometimes try to defend the indefensible because we feel like if we don't, we're not "sticking up for Transformers", and thereby not sticking up for a part of ourselves. It actually took me several weeks to feel okay about coming out and saying that I really didn't like RotF - I wanted to, I tried to use those few impressive moments in the film to convince myself that I did like it. But the more I thought about it, the more I felt I couldn't justify those few entertaining moments outweighing the disgraceful portrayals of women, black people, and Autobots generally (they seemed to take more glee in killing than the Decepticons did).

I think it is important to be counted among those who do not support or defend Michael Bay's intolerant and jaundiced vision of what Transformers is. I will validate my love of Transformers by standing up for those parts that reflect something worthy about the human experience.

[SofaMan]

So if I want to admire American black culture, I have to celebrate illiteracy?

This absolutely nails what I was talking about in my last post. Thanks kup.

[GoktimusPrime]

I like ROTF in spite of its flaws. There's been subtle racism since G1 (e.g.: suggestions of Autobots & Decepticons as separate races, one inherently good the other evil; one reason why I'm not fond of the blue-red eye division between Autobots and Decepticons in the G1 cartoon :/) but I still love Transformers in spite of it. Ditto The Lord of the Rings and many such fantasy lore which I enjoy despite in-built prejudices (why are there no evil elves or good orcs?).

And to give ROTF some credit, it did work against in-built racism when Jetfire (and Wheelie) defected and Jetfire explicitly explained that being an Autobot or Decepticon was a conscious and deliberate choice (and therefore not a "racial" thing). It's a shame that this is undone by the Twins and also by the whole "blue eye red eye" division (although Frenzy had blue eyes!).

But what's been done is done. I wonder what writers can do to salvage the twins in the next movie. What would you do? Visually I suppose there isn't much - their look has already been established. I would try to tone down or remove all the negative black stereotypes and try to push them toward more positive ones. If Bay truly intended for the Twins to be gangsta then let's make them gangsta! That was what Jazz was more like and there wasn't anything racially villifying about that character... other than ya know, being the first Autobot to get killed.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

But what's been done is done. I wonder what writers can do to salvage the twins in the next movie. What would you do? Visually I suppose there isn't much - their look has already been established. I would try to tone down or remove all the negative black stereotypes and try to push them toward more positive ones.

Transformers 3: Robot House - Skids and Mudflap go to College.
Oh, wait, positive stereotypes...

[Robzy]

And to give ROTF some credit, it did work against in-built racism when Jetfire (and Wheelie) defected and Jetfire explicitly explained that being an Autobot or Decepticon was a conscious and deliberate choice (and therefore not a "racial" thing). It's a shame that this is undone by the Twins and also by the whole "blue eye red eye" division

Not to mention it was also undone by the fact that Jetfire farted a parachute and Wheelie humped Megan Fox's leg!!

Good ol' Bay... anytime any characters start showing some substance, he makes them do something which undermines it and disengages the audience!