*Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartrim
*Way back in (post) issue #14. (Zealous Zed) ;)
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpo...6&postcount=14
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*Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartrim
*Way back in (post) issue #14. (Zealous Zed) ;)
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpo...6&postcount=14
Looks like a thomas the tank engine train to me in train mode.....Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
You might be thinking of these "bullet" trains:
http://www.netlaputa.ne.jp/~m-akao/G...S2/TOMAS2.html
The arguments I've heard here (note that these are not my arguments), is that a "KO" is intended to trick or deceive the purchaser, by not just stealing the likeness of a character, but attempting to clone an existing product's design in every way, even including packaging. I've also heard the argument that mass-produced-fan-made-customs fill a market gap that would otherwise not be filled (thus causing no loss of revenue to the IP owner), and while they might borrow a likeness, they still create their own physically unique product.
Based on those arguments, this seems to fall more in the fan-made-custom camp. Now, if you think this is a direct KO aka replica, please point me to the original, because I'd much prefer to buy that anyway.
Also, remember that this Soapbox is not really about the ethics of either position, but moreover the consistency of one's position. If I was running around reporting KOs to eBay, because I felt they infringed someone's IP, and then I went to buy this transforming train, this Soapbox argues that I would be hypocritical, and I agree.
However, in my case:
* I buy some fan made customs that infringe IP, and
* I don't report KOs for infringing IP
FWIW, I don't buy [what most here would call] KOs either, but I would never try to effect anyone else's ability to.
This is an example of a KO trying to pass as a Fan kit:
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=5450
The toy is not adding anything to an existing toy nor creating a new unique toy in the likeness of Hasbro's intellectual property. It's blatanly replicating HasTak's invested R&D into a scaled down unofficial toy which they are happy to sell and profit from without paying any royalties to the company that went through the procedure of creating the design.
It's not trying to trick anybody that its official but it is benefiting from the design and development of another. It's almost 100% Plagiarizing the engineering and design of a toy made by another company.
To me this is more in the realm of theft than any third party accessory kit or custom parts. I would indeed call this toy a KO.
The term "knockoffs" is a term commonly used to refer to what is more properly known as counterfeit goods (reference).
Dictionary.com defines counterfeit as: "an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine" (source).
Fan-made items are not imitations intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine. For example, City Commander is clearly not intended to pass off as a G1 Ultra Magnus trailer/armour.
Just a sorta related question;
Do you think Matt Moylan of Lil' Formers fame would pay licensing or royalties to HasTak for his use of their characters?
Interesting question. I'm almost certain the answer is 'no', particularly since his strips these days cover all sorts of different franchises (thus, there's no way he pays all of them and I'm guessing he doesn't pay any of them.) From a legal standpoint, I'd say that since what he's doing is parody, it may well constitute 'fair use'.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger
Matt Moylan does have some level of officiality in lil'formers. I think that he is contracted to do strips in the Club magazine which is an official publication.
I don't think he's ultimately profiting or making money from them. In many ways, it's a creative endeavour that he shares with fans. And it's not really just limited to TFs either. He's not selling those strips; just using them as part of parody as Sky Shadow points out.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger
So what? I thought you said KOs are fraudulent and deceptive and that's why individuals such as yourself see them as wrong. How is this product a KO when it quite clearly makes its point that it is a resized MP. It's not trying to decieve, nor lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
Mind you, I don't disagree with you that they are infringing the IP of Hasbro/Takara. But there's a really large hole in argument that tries to says its okay to steal IP as long as there's no deceptiion on fans but then say its not okay b/c they steal the IP of an already designed toy?
What's the difference between IP of a toy that Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in and the IP of a character/brand that Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in?
Not very much, I'm afraid.
So what you say?Quote:
Originally Posted by STL
Well one thing is creating an Ultra Magnus kit that is very loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property but is considerably different in engineering, design and appearance to anything that Hasbro has ever produced in the past as well as being something that there is absolutely no chance that Hasbro will ever do. Another is copying almost the exact design part by part of an existing official toy - down scaling it and then selling it without any royalties given to the creator than invested 95% of the overall Research, design and engineering.
- A fan kit is like an unofficial Addon Map pack for an existing Video game.
- This smaller MP Prime is like grabbing an existing game, copying it on a blank DVD with your own custom cover and then selling it as your own product.
As much difference as Apples and Oranges
Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
"loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property"? ? ?
:D ;) :rolleyes:
You seem to place no weight whatsoever in the character that Hasbro/Takara has built up. Sure in the case of CC, Ultra Magnus is no Optimus Prime. But if you take an unbiased view of it the simple cold and hard fact is that there is extreme value in the IP of a character. It's what transcends. Not the toy mold of the 80s but the character, Thats why a character remains recognisable in all his incarnations whether he be G1 Prime, RiD Prime, Optimus Optimal etc.
Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in the character to make it recognisable, to make it valuable. They research the market, the design the character in their studios, run focus groups, refine their designs etc. That's not effort? That is some serious effort to build a character that kids will care about, that kids who grow into adults still resonate with. For some third party to take that value in the IP is not right for a single moment. Tell me that you brought CC b/c you thought it was loosely based on Hasbro/Takara's IP then. Or did you buy it b/c its the modern representation of Ultra Magnus?
I think the answer's pretty obvious.
Just b/c its engineered does not make it for a moment less significant than the IP within a character. CC Ultra Magnus is clearly intended to be the modern (classics/universe) representation of Ultra Magnus. Pure and simple. it's folly to assert that you bought it b/c
1.) "it was loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property'"
2.) not deceptive nor fraudulent
Again, i don't disagree with u about the iGears Prime infringing IP but I'm trying to show you that the IP of a character is just as valuable, if not more, than a toy mold.
And that's what inspired the title of this Soapbox: "the Convenient Truth" b/c the reasons (excuses) levelled show a constant changing of goal posts by fans. Perhaps, as I propose, a better position is to realise we no longer occupy a tenable position and just ignore the issue altogether as otherwise we risk being hypocritical and coming up with convenient truths to justify why something is all so bad when something else is not.
You can't keep changing your goalposts. One moment its all about deception. The next moment its about engineering. The next moment its about Hasbro/Takara not wanting to do it anyway. The next moment its why should I pay so much for a toy when I can get a cheaper accessory set? It's as simple as the fact that we don't need convenient truths. Just accept the fact that we buy toys that impinge on IP and move on instead of trying to adopt some moral high ground.
Your argument is way too black & white in a topic that is so ambiguously gray and I believe this does not allow you to take into account perspective or context.
City Commander is not recreating fiction about Magnus so Hasbro's investment in the character is none relevant and as mentioned, the character design is different to anything that Hasbro has produced. City Commander's existance is not by any means taking away Hasbro's right to the character - It is actually reenforcing its appeal and as previously mentioned it has helped to sell what was just another repaint that no one cared about. Hasbro has not lost anything due to City Commander, on the contrary it has gained and actually reenforce the popularity of the character that may even help Hasbro sell more toys of him in the future.
This new scaled down MP Prime is now competing with the new officially released black repaint - See the difference?
None of this mumbo jumbo has any legal relevance in excusing an IP violation outside of Kup World.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
Ah, OK. I get it now. If you can violate IP in a way that doesn't directly compete, it's OK?Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
Here is a text book example of this Soapbox:
In one thread, you deride a company for making what you call a KO, and in another thread, you're organizing a group purchase of an item from the SAME company which is an equally (arguably more so) direct replica of an upcoming product accessory from Takara.
I don't see the reason for making people feel bad about something Hasbro themselves show no interest in prohibiting (and have even stated at BotCon that they are happy with *small scale* fan-stuff). No one here is claiming that any unauthorised products, either replicating or inspired by the Transformers brand/likeness, are legal (and are therefore unethical to acquire). The focus has been on the level of legality of each of these concepts. It isn't valid to say that all things illegal, are equally illegal. If it were, we would have the same penalties for stealing a loaf of bread, as we would for killing someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by STL
When you try to make out that all things here are equally illegal, it's only natural that others are going to come back with a reason why they aren't, so that they aren't being put into the same category as Counterfeit toys (which is actually something Hasbro do have a problem with).
If Hasbro themselves don't see Fan-produced stuff as being as bad as Counterfeit TFs, then don't try to label people of both categories as being just as bad as each other. Until Hasbro actually cracks down on the fan-produced, non-replica stuff, that sort of 'convenience' is just going to stir up tensions among fans who are still collecting within the scope of Hasbro policy.
Sorry guys, I'm closing this thread for now.
It is one thing to share opposing viewpoints in this thread (and I see all sides already had plenty of time to present and discuss their viewpoints.)
But it is another thing when we start to question fellow members' actions from other threads. It has long passed the point when the new discussions in this thread would benefit any of us in anyway.
We are all fellow fans with the same passion for TF and mates on this forum. I hope there'll be no hard feelings. :)
STL, I would love to read your next Soapbox. :)
Please PM me or other mods if any of you disagree with this.
Ok I'm re-opening the thread. But please keep in mind what I was trying to say in my previous post. The thread will be closed if it gets unfriendly to fellow members. Thanks guys.
As mentioned, I see the miniature MP Prime as a knock off and although the same company has indeed made the Grimlock crown - It is not the same thing.
The Grimlock crown is just an accessory made to compensate for the first release lacking it. We all saw the proototypes with the crown and we all thought until shortly before release that it was going to come with it. Instead it was released with the ridiculous Season 3 waiter kit. What this accessory kit is doing is giving us an accessory that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it and is not willing to go and buy a whole new MP Grimlock just for the crown alone.
The crown kit would only be the same violation as the miniature MP Prime if it actually came with a Grimlock figure. Interestingly enough the crown was also announced before we even knew about King Grimlock.
Well, so we aren't supposed to be angry unless Hasbro/Takara are unhappy about it? In that case, we better not get angry about poor quality control. we better not get upset about ridiculously high retial prices. we better not... I could start off on a long list of things we shouldn't be discussing unless Hasbro/Takara are unahppy about it but I'm not going to. The point being that that's not really a valid yardstick here either. What we've been tossing around are all these moral accusations at KOers and whatnot. Let's have a discussion about those points rather than saying "unless Hasbro/Takara are unhappy about it we're not going to have a discussion about it" If that were teh case, there would be a lot of discussions that should just never be had.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
And its very sad to see this "legal approach" label being thrown around. I've put forward countless moral arguments yet there are those who still want to see this thread as arguing legality. It isn't. It's a part of the argument but you only need to look several posts back to have a look at some moral points raised. And I might add too, there's a stark and telling silence in response to those moral counterpoints. It'd be quite nice if someone would respond.
The main point I'm trying to assert is actually we don't have solid moral high ground to occupy anymore given you can't support one yet deride the other on some arbitrary basis that conveniently justifies your desire to buy it. There isn't a moral high ground you can with conviction hold unless you buy non of the mass-customs. It's incredibly shaky and the goal posts keep just changing.
Again,
a.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they aren't currently using it?
b.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they're " that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it "?
c.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c its too expensive to purchase the whole item again (which happens to be an exclusive)?
d.) Is it okay to steal another's IP if you aren't fraudulent and deceptive?
e.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c they aren't currently producing it?
These are very much moral questions here based on the collection of responses so far propogated here.
I agree, they're completely different things. One's an accessory, the other's an actual toy. But fact is they both rely heavily on the IP of someone else. And in the case of the crown, it's clearly in direct competition with Takara's exclusive which it went out of its way with to try and make a unique offering to the market. But now it's been stepped all over b/c as yourself and others noted earlier, why buy the more expensive set for just a crown?Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
To paraphrase you but with reference to say Animated Wingblade Prime if it had been produced by some custom group:
The Wingblade armour is just an accessory made to compensate for the first release lacking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
What this accessory kit is doing is giving us an accessory that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it and is not willing to go and buy a whole new Animated voyager Prime just for the armour alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
The Wingblade kit would only be the same violation as the miniature MP Prime if it actually came with a Voyager Prime figure. Interestingly enough the wingblade kit was also announced before we even knew about Wingblade Optimus Prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
I hope the above illustrates just how tenuous that argument is. So it's okay to directly compete with Hasbro as long as you don't have to buy the whole figure again? You just take out the core appeal of the re-release (Wingblade armour or the crown), sell it separately and it's okay b/c it completes your Voyager Prime/Grimlock? Where does that leave Hasbro/Takara? Someone's making something that directly competes with their upcoming product.
Secondly, another quandry that you've brought up is annoucement. So if Hasbro/Takara don't announce to us what they intend to produce then it's okay to go out there and do it yourself? I think not. It's like previously, you do not build on a part of someone's land just b/c they haven't used it for the last 10 years now, do you? And besides, why should Hasbro/Takara tell us what they're producing so we can decide whether or not to produce ourselvse? They don't have to.
Animated Voyager Prime by the time Wingblade Prime hits will have been available for clsoe to 2 years. I can tell you at the start that Hasbro probably didn't even know that was in the pipeline. But they at some point, when planning for another year, sit down and thought about it and decided to produce Wingblade Prime. It's not quite fair to expect Hasbro/Takara to have to announce everything beforehand when really it's their IP - character or mold. So to produce a crown or Wingblade Prime would not be justifiable. It competes quite directly with what they are intending to offer.
In any event, while there is disagreement on this view I think it will be very interesting in the future. The lines are becoming grayer and grayer and more convenient truths are being used as we see more customs that really test this issue and I'm certainly sure that this topic isn't done with yet given things like Arcee and Defender etc are in the pipeline.
While i have no problem with anyone buying any of these (or KOs), I see a problem when one derides KOs on some moral high ground and yet goes out there and purchases mass custom product. Just accept them all or not at all b/c you have to realise that they only exist b/c of the very same infringement that allows each of them to exist - the theft of IP. And is theft ever moral? Which leads is back to the same old questions
a.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they aren't currently using it?
b.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they're " that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it "?
c.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c its too expensive to purchase the whole item again (which happens to be an exclusive)?
d.) Is it okay to steal another's IP if you aren't fraudulent and deceptive?
e.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c they aren't currently producing it?
I think that you are missing the point of our arguments. As griffin said you cannot judge everything equally bad in such a black and white manner - You have to also assess the context of the release in question.
If Wingblade Prime kit was suddenly and deliberately announced right after Hasbro had announced their own release then yeah it is a knock off and on top of that its not worth it as the custom is likely to cost as much as the official release as its a lower end toy plus it comes with an official 'adapted' Prime figure to fit the armor but that's irrelevant to the topic in question since this scenario has not happened and we are talking about what makes a custom kit 'good' or a KO. However if Hasbro had announced or it becomes clear that there would never be a Wingblade Prime then that validates the existence and relevance of the kit. It's basically all about context.
MP Grimlock on the other hand is a very expensive high end toy which was supposed to come with a crown which happend to be missing from the final product - Just the crown. Not many people would go forth and spend the same or more likely an increased amount again ranging from $250-$300+ on the same toy only for the crown. The custom crown is only $15-$17 before shipping and 'completes' your first release Grimlock and if it wasn't for the kit several Grimlocks would simply remain 'uncrowned' with the owner not bothering with the new release. Using myself as an example, if the only difference between the first Grimlock and King Grimlock was just the crown I would not have bothered with the newer release at all with or without the custom crown available.
Truth is often a matter of context and perspective such as with Fan Kits. I see the term of 'An inconvenient Truth' on this topic as none applicable as you are trying to enforce a generalized but absolute term of 'True/False' on something that is very much a gray area that can become 'moral' or 'immoral' depending on the context in which its used as well as execution.
This Wingblade Prime a clear knock off and I consider it as bad in a similar way as the miniature MP Prime for reasons already explained:
http://kotoys.com/Photos/Animated/aniOSOPstars01.jpg
Am I missing something here? We all have the option to vote with our wallets. If you have an objection against unlicensed products, then just don't buy them. Buy choosing to purchase them you are therefore choosing to support them. AFAIK nobody has a gun pointed to their head and is being forced to buy these things.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...moneymouth.jpg
Put your money where your mouth is.
If I buy fan customs, then I have no right to be against KO.
If I hit my own kids, then I have no right to be against someone raping my own kids?
Is this the right logic?
Knockoffs raped your beaten kids' childhood? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Well yes. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sky Shadow
I suppose if I smoke cigarette, then I have no right to be against taking hardcore drugs as well.
IMHO:
+ If you're cool with fan customs, go ahead and buy them.
+ If you're cool with KOs, go ahead and buy them.
+ If you object to fan customs, don't buy them.
+ If you object to KOs, don't buy them.
...in short if you don't like something, I dunno, don't buy them? What I'm finding confusing is that some people seem to have a vehemently strong objection against something, _but_ admit that they are willing to buy them. ??? I guess it's like seeing a gambler criticising others who gamble.
I think that the argument put forth by STL is not so much if you are cool (or not) with KOs or customs and more that if you buy customs you shouldn't be against KOs because they are the same thing from a moral point. Of course I disagree with such a view.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Morally speaking, ALL people on this forum ARE wrong. We shouldn't even be spending money on official Hasbro/TakaraTomy toys. We're all grown-ups! Our money should be going to more worthwhile things like feeding the homeless and hungry, charities and children in Ethiopia etc etc.
:) Gotta love that Animated Cybertron Prime with armour. They stop at nothing, don’t they?Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
Again, you’re context misses the point. Your context is changing goal posts and rationalize it. The whole price point is moot. You use it b/c its convenient to you. Let’s put it this way then. If someone can’t afford an original G1 Devastator, its okay that they purchase a KO? That that legitimises the existence of the KO? But under your reasoning the context matters. So what’s not to say then KOs are okay? Oh and add to that for instance that Takara has said it’s lost the mold for G1 Grimlock. Well guess what? A counterfeit producer goes out there and reproduces it. Given the contextual points, you’ve made above, does it legitimise the existence of the KO?
The moral high ground really rests on one being able to assert the fraud and theft of the person who steals the IP – be it mold or character. In the cases above, I’ve used your very own arguments to justify KOs which just goes to show how conveniently you can make the truth so that it works for you. That’s why it’s not tenable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
I think you’re being facetious here. And I won’t honour it with a petty retort. But to answer your overall point I would answer in the affirmative as the position is not one you can stand on given that both arise from the abuse of IP that they do not belong. I’ve given my reasons before. If you’d like I’d encourage you to address some of those questions I’ve posed above. It’s much harder to do than be facetious.
Again, as I’ve said. I personally have no problem about fan customs. What this Soapbox has tried to contend though is that it’s not possible to occupy a moral high ground on KOs or even pseudo KOs (like iGear Prime) when we’re willing to venture out and purchase other items that stem from the very same infringement of IP. What moral high ground we have is tenuous at best. The Soapbox is not saying you can’t dislike KOs, you still can, but don’t think for a moment that they’re there’s some higher moral high ground you can stand aloft on b/c most of those reasons, quite unfortunately, are simply convenient truths.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Again, I should also note that last year or the year before I was foremost among people to initiate the complaint process on eBay on these forums against KOs. It's not like I have a certain love affair with them either. I don't like them but given the change to our evolving fandom, I've had to reassess my position on them. I'm not a KO lover by any stretch of the imagination but I'm not a hypocrite either
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
All that said, clearly there is divided opinion on the matter. As I’ve previously mention, I don’t think it’s going to get easier. There’s a lot in the pipeline that will only raise more and more questions about what they are and where they sit.
Yes... and Michael Bay and the "Writers" should never have been paid millions of $$$s for ROTF!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
When we head out on a Thursday to Sunday and blow a pile of hard earned on alcohol, technically we all are being irresponsible then too, eh? Cos all it ends up is violence on our streets. (well in Melb anyway)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
:p
It was fun for a while but now I am tired of dancing around in circles with this topic. I have stated my point of view and why I disagree with your 'soap box' a few times already and no point going on and on repeating ourselves.
As I may have said before (possibly about a thousand posts ago in this thread), I've never bought a fan custom and I think I've only ever bought one knockoff - about ten years ago I bought a cheap plastic downsized version of Dreadwind and Darkwing from Woolworths for less than five dollars: I wanted to see how they transformed and combined since I'd never had a Dreadwind.
STL and Jaydisc - it seems like intellectual property is the main soapbox issue for you guys. By that logic, would it be okay for people to buy fan customs like this future proposal:
http://www.seibertron.com/images/toy...0Prev%2014.JPGhttp://www.seibertron.com/images/toy...0Prev%2011.JPG
Or (assuming they have Scramble City pegs) are they a no-go as well? Personally, I'm all for Fansprojects turning in this sort of direction - I'm not interested in trailers or weapon accessories or hands for gestalts or whatever else is going on at the moment, but this sort of thing interests me. What would also interest me is - if something like Glacialbot did come to fruition - would he sell more, less or the same as the toys that do trespass on Hasbro's intellectual property?
Fan items don't attempt to deceive consumers whereas counterfeits do. From a legal perspective, I would agree that they are both IP infringements, but to very different degrees.Quote:
Originally Posted by STL
It's like say if I kill someone in self defence as opposed to actually plotting and executing a plan to kill them; from a legal POV the former would be an act of manslaughter whereas the latter is an act of murder. They're both still acts of killing, but the intent is completely different. As I understand it, murder is defined as killing someone with malice aforethought.
So I find the moral/ethical difference between fan items and counterfeits is that counterfeits are made with 'malicious intent'; i.e.: a specific intention to compete with legitimate products and deceive consumers. Fan items on the other hand are generally devoid of this malice.
So you don't buy unlicensed products then?Quote:
Originally Posted by STL
I don't buy unlicensed stuff, but personally I don't hold a real objection against fan items. I'm neither for nor against them. But I _do_ hold an objection against counterfeits though.
Then you sir, along with a select few others (Gok, Griffin, etc.), have what STL would refer to as a tenable position against KOs, should you choose to take it. Interestingly enough, I've not seen you as an outspoken person on that topic. Many can learn from you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Shadow
Well, not so much the issue, as consistency is, but infringement of IP happens to be the consistent theme connecting most MPFCs (Mass Produced Fan Customs - sick of typing it out) to KOs. Others keep getting confused by this. It isn't about being pro or anti KO. It isn't about being pro or anti MPFC. The line dividing the common definitions of the two are graying by the day (literally), and any reason given for deriding a KO can also be used to deride some MPFC, and any reason to defend an MPFC can be used to defend a KO. So it's about consistency. I'm not for or against any side. I'm simply anti-hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Shadow
According to Kup, he feel he's entitled to an unlicensed product to complete an existing purchase because he saw a picture of it in an unofficially distributed prototype photo!!! Now, even if I can suspend my absolute bewilderment that that is a defense, conversely, why isn't Joey Joe Joe Shabadoo entitled to buy a KO Sunstreaker when the arm on his G1 original breaks off?
Why are group orders for repro parts permitted here but not repro bots? WhatTF is the difference? It's OK to bootleg a gun, but not a leg? WTF?!?!?!
I think the above is awesome, and like you, i fully support FP turning in this direction! After initially seeing this when shown, I had a hope and belief that Fans Project has simply used the Transformers fandom, along with some borrowed IP, as a stepping stone in order to get established as their own independent brand of transforming robots. I'm thrilled at the prospect of new toys of new characters from a new company that's more interested in catering to a more expensive, more demanding market that I would like to be part of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Shadow
Unfortunately though, I think it would sell less than their borrowed ideas. But, I think they're using the goodwill and publicity for those borrowed ideas so that when they do try to stand on their own feet, they'll have a big enough audience to keep them propped up. Go FP!
We already covered this, but I would argue that most KO purchasers KNOW they are buying KOs, so while some KO resellers choose to use deception, many do not! (e.g. www.kotoys.com) One only has to go a few pages deep at other international forums to see that there is large collector demand for KOs. So, even if you were able to somehow successfully remove KO resellers ability to achieve sales by deception, market demand would still keep them in business.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Because you and others are not interested in that market, it's natural for you to not see it, and thus your only exposure to KOs is from resellers who try to push them off in your non-KO-endorsing marketplaces, so your assumption is natural. To the market that IS interested in KOs, those KOs are filling a market gap just like a crown for MP-8 or a smaller version of MP-1 fills a market gap for others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
I don't remember you replying or addressing post #52 on this thread. That was convenient for you too? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by STL
Your questions were never difficult to be answered:
a.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they aren't currently using it? No
b.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they're " that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it "? No
c.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c its too expensive to purchase the whole item again (which happens to be an exclusive)? No
d.) Is it okay to steal another's IP if you aren't fraudulent and deceptive? No
e.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c they aren't currently producing it? No
f.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c you claim that your success is not built on this IP entirely? No
I never claimed FansProject to be entirely innocent. However, as others already pointed out, I still don't see FansProject to be as bad as KO. And I still don't see why just because I've been naughty in Mr Hasbro's classroom, I cannot point out or report another kid doing something else much worse. And Mr Hasbro has been naughty himself too. He teaches us from notes and books he took from others (eg Mr Lamorgini) without paying, but at least he didn't claim he invented Mathematics.
So if we buy Fan Customs then we can't be against KO. And if Hasbro infringed on others' IP (like Lamborgini) out of convenience then they're not supposed to stop others from making KO of Hasbro toys? Because then they would be hypocrites? :confused:
I don't consider Hasbro borrowing others' IP out of convenience to be as bad as making a full KO. However, I also don't see it as any better than what FansProject has been doing.
I consider FansProject to be at least creative. All their toys are created from scratch and not extrapolated from any existing toy mould. I just can't see them at the same level of KO.
I cannot speak for others. But if one day Hasbro releases their own Magnus Armour or Prime Trailer, then I would be buying them as well. Another problem is we are judging these fan products by what we think others might or might not do.
Maybe I can field some of these:
Correct. That's the entire basis of the soapbox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Well, if we are really going to try to shoehorn this example in, it would be more apt to say that if you hit your own kids, that preaching against raping your own kids would be untenable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
There's a few different angles here. If you complain that hardcore drug takers can't control their addiction, that would be untenable as you have an addiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
This is a great example, worthy of its own soapbox, but there are many pro-alcohol, anti-drug people all over the world. Alcohol is one of the most debilitating, violence inducing drugs, and it's the legal one.
With the MiniMP Prime on its way, that mold is but at the same time isnt from scratch. They have taken the idea and mold and basically shrunk it down. Is that not what a Knockoff I saw of Fort Max? When you compare that, it doesnt seem different, but when you think about it, it is more for the fans to have a more scaled version of prime to be compared to Grimlock that HasTak released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
As most have stated, it is not all black and white, and everyone ill have there own opinions and won't budge on it.
We all have great arguments here, and I am not going to take sides. I have bought a few Fanmade projects, because they add something new that Has/Tak decided to leave out or not even think of.
And tastes soooooooo good :pQuote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
And without getting too much into it, anyone with the willpower can break out of an addiction. I drank alot, so much that I cant remember most of 2006. But I broke out of that and drink socially now, and get drunk on the rare occasions.
You didn't miss much... Galvatron and his cronies travelled back in time to 1986. Unicron took control of Hot Rod, Kup & Blurr and made them do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AZRAEL1
Nothing special! :p
I buy fan customs, and I report Ko's on ebay.
So if that makes me hypocritical and/or morally corrupt I only have two solutions;
A) Continue to love and buy Fan made, and cease KO reports on ebay.
The result making me non-hypocritical, but the report I don't make might cause some unwitting sucker to be ripped-off.
B) Don't by Fans mades, continue to report Ko's, and go with the Hastak flow.
The result making me non-hypocritical and Morally superior, with a naked Ultra Magnus to boot. But I'll feel good because nothing is better than a warm cup of righteousness.
Hmmm....I'll go with A! :D
Maybe we could have a Poll? Just to finalise everyone's positions and put an end to the mystery?