Classics/Universe canon

In the Universe Armada Mini-Cons thread there was a discussion about which continuity the Universe Armada Mini-Cons belong to. Hasbro has marketed them as being "Transformers Universe: Armada Series." So which is it? Do they belong to Universe continuity (i.e.: continuation from Beast Machines), Armadaverse continuity or Classics continuity (i.e. Timelines continuity) -- which is it?

I would actually say that they are part of the Armadaverse continuity.

Here's the thing...
1/ Classics itself isn't a single contained continuity. When people (myself included) refer to Classics continuity, we're really talking about the appearance of Classics in the Timelines continuity (Games of Deception) - which is an alternate continuation from G1 (and negating G2).
2/ Not all Classics characters belong to the Timelines continuity. e.g.: Classics Jetfire is part of the IDW mainline G1 continuity.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/tr...reclassics.jpghttp://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/tr...icsvoyager.jpg

H'okay - so far we've seen that there are at least two different continuities where Classics Transformers belong to. But wait, there's more! In All Hail Megatron, aside from the canonical debut of the Masterpiece Seekers, we also see two "Classics 2.0" Universe toys in it as well! Namely Prowl and Sunstreaker.

Prowl
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...erse_prowl.jpg

Sunstreaker
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...unstreaker.jpg

Neat, huh? :cool: :)

So basically, there is no "Classics/Universe" continuity, but rather Classics/Universe characters get slotted into different continuities such as IDW-G1, Timelines, All Hail Megatron - and yes, even Armada (in the case of the aforementioned Mini-Cons)... and there may be Classics/Universe characters appearing in other continuities in the future (who knows).

To me :), Minicons were born & flourished in the Armada Era. Minicons were "Armada's Thing"...

So even though Hasbro wants to rename these Minicons underneath the Universe Banner, It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to as well.

So therefore to me :), Universe Minicons = Armada Minicons

But whether or not I'd consider picking up this upcoming Minicon 12-pack, the answer would have to be "no". If a Minicon isn't translucent (eg. the Cyb Shadow Recon Team), then I'm really not interested in it... :D

(I can feel the flames burning... :o)

Well, if the packaging says Universe-ARmada

obviously they were pulled into the 'Universe' universe by Unicron, pulled from the Armada universe like the Autobot Smokescreen- see Universe comics #1


As for the Classics/Universe:

Classics is different from Universe, remember, 'Universe', no matter which year, is still Universe.

It does seem that the 'Classics' minicons only belong to the Timelines Classics comic and the rest of the 'regular' G1 characters can be slotted as representing said characters in any G1 continuity they appeared in (Marvel, Sunbow, IDW, DW, etc).

Basically, Classics are modern takes on G1 characters despite continuity so they belong to all of G1.

Pulse: as kup pointed out not all Mini-Cons belong to the Armadaverse continuity - for example the Classics Mini-Cons are not part of Armadaverse but part of the Timelines/Games of Deception continuity.

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Originally Posted by roller

Well, if the packaging says Universe-ARmada

obviously they were pulled into the 'Universe' universe by Unicron, pulled from the Armada universe like the Autobot Smokescreen- see Universe comics #1

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But Universe Prowl and Sunstreaker appear in the All Hail Megatron universe which appears to be utterly unrelated to the Universe universe.

And if they're calling these Mini-Cons "Universe: Armada" I don't see why they couldn't have called Classics 2.0 "Universe: Classics." Just another reason why I don't like Hasbro's decision to collectively lump everything into this new "Universe" banner. (-_-)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/tr...iverselogo.jpghttp://www.seibertron.com/images/new...iverse2008.gif
Two universes... same freakin' name. (<_<) (>_>)

Calling the Classics Minicons 'Armada' proves that Hasbro either doesn't care or does not understand its own product line.

Minicon does NOT automatically mean Armada since they have appeared in other continuities since. If they wanted to tribute Armada in some way within Universe, then why didn't they use actual Armada minicon characters??

One of the things that motivate me to ignore the Universe Classics and go straight into Henkei aside from the quality is that Henkei are actually considering its releases as a single line not a 'one fits all' line which Hasbro was destined to screw up.

Hell, they couldn't handle a single continuity line without introducing stupid crap like 'Prowl 2' so how are they going to cope with a multi-continuity line such as Universe without screwing it up is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

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But Universe Prowl and Sunstreaker appear in the All Hail Megatron universe which appears to be utterly unrelated to the Universe universe.

And if they're calling these Mini-Cons "Universe: Armada" I don't see why they couldn't have called Classics 2.0 "Universe: Classics." Just another reason why I don't like Hasbro's decision to collectively lump everything into this new "Universe" banner. (-_-)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/tr...iverselogo.jpghttp://www.seibertron.com/images/new...iverse2008.gif
Two universes... same freakin' name. (<_<) (>_>)

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Prowl and Sunny appear in all heil megatron because the comic people or Hasbro couldnt be bothered to think up a new character design, or to give exposure to a new toy to entice readers to buy the toy.

I like to think they are 1 universe, they do have the same name.

They may have the same name, but they're clearly NOT the same continuity.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

They may have the same name, but they're clearly NOT the same continuity.

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Agreed, they certainly are not the same Universe. Hasbro at Botcon have officially said so too so if you consider them as such, its by your own choosing.

This is just all too confusing for me. The limited supply of neurons inside my head cannot cope with all this information.

-- Initiate shutdown -- :D

To me it's even simpler. What line did the moulds for the toys originally come from? That answers the question.
________
Honda Vtx1800N

the mini-cons they may be classics molds but (most, if not all) are new characters so they are armada characters in my mind.

As far as toy appearances in IDW, that's just cross promotion in my eyes, the toys weren't designed to be in the IDW-verse so I wouldn't say that Uni Prowl is IDW any more than G1 Prowl, same with Jetfire. granted this is all my opinion and is not gospel, for example I consider Skyfire and Jetfire separate characters!

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Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy

the mini-cons they may be classics molds but (most, if not all) are new characters so they are armada characters in my mind.

As far as toy appearances in IDW, that's just cross promotion in my eyes, the toys weren't designed to be in the IDW-verse so I wouldn't say that Uni Prowl is IDW any more than G1 Prowl, same with Jetfire. granted this is all my opinion and is not gospel, for example I consider Skyfire and Jetfire separate characters!

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The following is how I take all this since its all pretty much about the Universe Classics:

Sunstreaker, Prowl, Ironhide, Sideswipe, Octane, Galvatron, Silverbolt, Powerglide and other toys clearly representing G1 characters belong to ALL OF G1 not just any particular continuity.

Why? Because I take Classics not as a continuity but as 'modernizations' of classic G1 characters so they fit all G1 continuities where the character has appeared.

Minicons, Legends, etc? I don't give a damn about them so I didn't/will not buy them and they don't fit at all with the main G1 continuities aside from the very isolated Timelines comic. So when it comes to Minicons, I don't care.

So as far as I was concerned, minicons are not G1 because Classics for me is not a continuity but figures tributing classic G1 characters so when I see Henkei/Universe Prowl, to me he belongs to Marvel G1, Sunbow cartoon, DW, IDW, etc.

Reading all these posts... :confused:

It starting to make my head spin... :o

I think I need a shot of Machine Men to bring some sanity back :p

I apologise in advance if I misread something somebody said or whatever, as I did not sleep last night.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

And if they're calling these Mini-Cons "Universe: Armada" I don't see why they couldn't have called Classics 2.0 "Universe: Classics." Just another reason why I don't like Hasbro's decision to collectively lump everything into this new "Universe" banner. (-_-)

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Hasbro resurrected the brand name Universe so that the line can have toys (new and old toolings) from all possible continuities and previous toylines.

Universe = universal. Everything and anything can be put in without being tied down to a particular design style or storyline. Plus, obviously, Hasbro planned this line to coincide with the 25th Anniversary, making it convienient for them to throw in characters and designs from EVERY continuity. No overall theme or story = you can do whatever you want.

I think Tomy might have some problems if they have to explain (storywise) why Beast Wars Cheetor is hanging around with Armada Hot Shot and G1 Hound, assuming they are all released in Henkei or some other line.

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But Universe Prowl and Sunstreaker appear in the All Hail Megatron universe which appears to be utterly unrelated to the Universe universe.

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From what I can tell, the toys "belong" to whatever stated 'series' is printed on their packaging. For example, the 'Classics Series' characters are in a new G1 continuity of some sort where Galvatron (who is not an upgrade of the original Megatron) has reunited the scattered Decepticon forces, presumably after some significant Autobot victory. Naturally, you can also consider them 'any G1', because their bio stories don't specifically say what continuity or universe the story is based upon.

Yeah, in All Hail Megatron, it just the case of IDW and Guido Guidi wanting to use the toys in their comic. Hasbro doesn't really use comics to promote toys anymore, I don't think.

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Originally Posted by kup

Calling the Classics Minicons 'Armada' proves that Hasbro either doesn't care or does not understand its own product line.

Minicon does NOT automatically mean Armada since they have appeared in other continuities since. If they wanted to tribute Armada in some way within Universe, then why didn't they use actual Armada minicon characters??

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In Hasbro's product line, Mini-Cons have only appeared in the Unicron Trilogy (with is connected to Timelines) and the Classics version of the Marvel G1 continuity (which is also connected to Timelines). The latter being a technicality because they were Cybertron toy molds, but the Cybertron line was ending, so they put them in Classics instead when the Movie release date was moved back.

Hasbro can declare these Mini-Cons as Armada (as in Unicron Trilogy) Mini-Cons for they are new characters, and thus, we can assume they were previously unseen in the Armada fiction. Part of it has to do with Brand Association. Armada was ridiculously successful. The kids who see Armada as *their* G1 maybe be attracted to a set of Mini-Cons who are sold as 'Armada series' merchandise, and generally people identify Mini-Cons as belonging to Armada.

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Originally Posted by FFN

From what I can tell, the toys "belong" to whatever stated 'series' is printed on their packaging.

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Yeah but you have to admit that Hasbro sometimes slap the wrong 'series' on the toy. How the **** is Air Attack Optimus Primal an Autobot from RiD? :mad:

Yes, I know the history of the toy, and understand why it was released during the RiD era. But that doesn't mean the toy should have been marketed purely as an RiD Autobot, with no reference to Beast Machines.

The simple fact is that Hasbro marketing ppl often attach series names to toys without really knowing/caring (or whatever) which series label would be most appropriate.

In the case of the MiniCons, the fact that these MiniCon moulds got held back - coupled with the fact that the original versions were slapped with Classics marketing - makes them out of place to someone no matter what you call them.

I'm not going to get all "Archer is evil incarnate" about it, but Hasbro's sloppiness (at whatever level, for whatever reason) is the reason this is so controversial.

AAOP: Simple, convienience. Autobots were in, Maximals were out as the Transformers heroes. And presumably to create less confusion to their target demographic and the retailers. Be strange to have him in RID packaging and yet have absolutely nothing to do with RID.

Before somebody mentions different, BM-based packaging for him, there's the brand association. The TF brand at the time was RID, they hadn't done multiple concurrent lines yet, and considering Beast Machines was a dissapointment, they obviously didn't want to package such a large and expensive toy as a 'Beast Machines' product. The kids would have probably ignored him since he would have been part of last year's line.


Now, I don't get why you guys are so bent out of shape over the Mini-Cons being assigned to Armada, considering that they're not the same Mini-Con characters from the Classics line, so they can be Armada universe Mini-Cons who just happen to have the same body types as Mini-Cons from a different universe.

Armada is the most appropriate place for Mini-Con toys, so in they go (and its likely that when Hasbro say 'Armada series', they probably mean 'Unicron Trilogy', since the UT is an unofficial term, though used internally by Hasbro.)

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Originally Posted by FFN

AAOP: Simple, convienience. Autobots were in, Maximals were out as the Transformers heroes. And presumably to create less confusion to their target demographic and the retailers. Be strange to have him in RID packaging and yet have absolutely nothing to do with RID.

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That's because he has nothing to do with RiD. He should have been packaged as the Beast Machines toy he is, plain and simple. That's line relevance.

Kids aren't stupid enough to forget Beast Machines after one year, despite the dumbing down that is so prevalent in marketing to children nowadays. Show me a kid who can't tell the difference between (in current terms) Movie Bumblebee and Animated Bumblebee - and where they belong - and I'll find a special needs school for him.

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Originally Posted by FFN

Now, I don't get why you guys are so bent out of shape over the Mini-Cons being assigned to Armada

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I don't get why you're so determined to defend the lazy efforts of Hasbro marketing.

Show me where these toys appear in the Armada comic or cartoon.

Following your own logic from the AAOP debate, these Minicons should not be sold as Armada because kids won't recognise them as Transformers, since that line hasn't been around for five years.

I wouldn't object to them being labelled as Armada if there was a proper attempt to tie these moulds which were never released during that era to Armada. And the whole "Minicons are Armada" thing is a little weak considering we've seen Minicons under the Energon, Cybertron, Classics, Universe and Movie banners. Yes, fans associate Minicons with Armada, but not exclusively so. And kids today probably wont, since they've been in almost every subline since.

I won't base my decision to purchase this pack solely on the label, but since it's a fairly expensive pack of repaints with an interesting layout there's a fairly good chance that fans like myself would consider this pack as something to keep sealed. In which case the label becomes relevant. I probably wont get this set, since the repaints don't interest me, but the "Armada" label on it pretty much rules out buying to keep sealed. And I'm not bent out of shape about that, but Hasbro's lazy packaging may just have lost them a purchase.

What's AAOP? Not this I hope.

Air Attack Optimus Primal. The big BM Primal, released in RiD packaging.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Sunstreaker
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...unstreaker.jpg

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You cropped out Universe Sideswipe who was standing right next to his brother.. :p

the concept of transformers having family relations (brother) i thought was weird considering they were all processed in a factory by the quints

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Originally Posted by autobreadticon

they were all processed in a factory by the quints

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Not in every Universe my young friend. I'm sure (guessing really) they have a different origin in all the different continuities.

Of course the only real continuity that counts is the Diggerverse where all Tf's were created by God (me) and they all live alongside one another be they Trilogy, G1, Titanium, Alt, Bt, Classic, Henkei, Machine men or any other name.

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Originally Posted by dirge

Air Attack Optimus Primal. The big BM Primal, released in RiD packaging.

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The best BM toy in my book. :D

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Originally Posted by kup

The following is how I take all this since its all pretty much about the Universe Classics:

Sunstreaker, Prowl, Ironhide, Sideswipe, Octane, Galvatron, Silverbolt, Powerglide and other toys clearly representing G1 characters belong to ALL OF G1 not just any particular continuity.

Why? Because I take Classics not as a continuity but as 'modernizations' of classic G1 characters so they fit all G1 continuities where the character has appeared.

Minicons, Legends, etc? I don't give a damn about them so I didn't/will not buy them and they don't fit at all with the main G1 continuities aside from the very isolated Timelines comic. So when it comes to Minicons, I don't care.

So as far as I was concerned, minicons are not G1 because Classics for me is not a continuity but figures tributing classic G1 characters so when I see Henkei/Universe Prowl, to me he belongs to Marvel G1, Sunbow cartoon, DW, IDW, etc.

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I find myself agreeing with kup.

I also agree with Kup, its like he made my thoughts legible!

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Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger

Of course the only real continuity that counts is the Diggerverse where all Tf's were created by God (me) and they all live alongside one another be they Trilogy, G1, Titanium, Alt, Bt, Classic, Henkei, Machine men or any other name.

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You're Primus????:confused::eek::p

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Originally Posted by kup

You're Primus????:confused::eek::p

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No, he's actually Unicron :D (ie. he eats everything & vomits the leftovers out altogether - that's how they all live in the same universe... :confused:;))

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Originally Posted by dirge

That's because he has nothing to do with RiD. He should have been packaged as the Beast Machines toy he is, plain and simple. That's line relevance.

Kids aren't stupid enough to forget Beast Machines after one year, despite the dumbing down that is so prevalent in marketing to children nowadays. Show me a kid who can't tell the difference between (in current terms) Movie Bumblebee and Animated Bumblebee - and where they belong - and I'll find a special needs school for him.

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It is simple marketing at the end of the day. Beast Machines toys were yesterday's news. RID was today's hot thing, and since BM didn't do so well, they put him in the packaging of a line that would probably serve the toy better in selling him, particularly for the retailer that ended up with loads of unsold Supreme class Cheetors. I doubt they would have wanted another Supreme class Beast Machines toy.

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I don't get why you're so determined to defend the lazy efforts of Hasbro marketing.

Show me where these toys appear in the Armada comic or cartoon.

Following your own logic from the AAOP debate, these Minicons should not be sold as Armada because kids won't recognise them as Transformers, since that line hasn't been around for five years.

I wouldn't object to them being labelled as Armada if there was a proper attempt to tie these moulds which were never released during that era to Armada. And the whole "Minicons are Armada" thing is a little weak considering we've seen Minicons under the Energon, Cybertron, Classics, Universe and Movie banners. Yes, fans associate Minicons with Armada, but not exclusively so. And kids today probably wont, since they've been in almost every subline since.

I won't base my decision to purchase this pack solely on the label, but since it's a fairly expensive pack of repaints with an interesting layout there's a fairly good chance that fans like myself would consider this pack as something to keep sealed. In which case the label becomes relevant. I probably wont get this set, since the repaints don't interest me, but the "Armada" label on it pretty much rules out buying to keep sealed. And I'm not bent out of shape about that, but Hasbro's lazy packaging may just have lost them a purchase.

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Haven't you ever heard of retroactive continuity? They can place new characters in older continuities if they wish. What? New molds of new characters should never be done for older fiction? Its just "Hey, these are new Mini-Con teams that you didn't see previously."

That's it. You buy them and play with them, and if you so wish, you can imagine them as belonging to any continuity if you so choose. Hasbro isn't locking you into some kind of continuity contract for these toys that you must follow or oblige :D

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Hasbro isn't locking you into some kind of continuity contract for these toys that you must follow or oblige

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They do for some nerds.

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No, he's actually Unicron (ie. he eats everything & vomits the leftovers out altogether - that's how they all live in the same universe... )

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Haha............good one.....

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Originally Posted by Pulse

No, he's actually Unicron :D (ie. he eats everything & vomits the leftovers out altogether - that's how they all live in the same universe... :confused:;))

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Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger

Haha............good one.....

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So you think my material is actually getting better? :D

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Originally Posted by FFN

It is simple marketing at the end of the day. Beast Machines toys were yesterday's news.

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So you want to claim this while defending Hasbro's right to sell Minicons as Armada in 2008? Armada is past being yesterday's news - it was last on the shelves five years ago. An eight year old would have been three then, and in the five years since, we've had MiniCons in most Transformers lines. So if BM was yesterday's news after one year, then what does that make Armada?

http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/nu...0on%20head.jpg

You're entitled to defend Hasbro's right to not take pride in their products. But you may want to reconsider presenting contradictory arguments at the same time. It'll make your case a lot stronger.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...5ab3b7ac65.gif

The way I see it is that 2006 Classics has a story: an alternate what happened next following from the US Marvel Comic.

IMO, 2008 Universe on the otherhand continues the Universe storyline of Transformers from alternate realities being plucked out of their regular time and space and fighting alongside/against each other. (Like Marvel Comic's Exiles series). Therefore you have Minicons plucked out of the Armada universe, you have Roadbuster and Dirge plucked out of Marvel UK, Ratbat and Springer from Dreamwave War Within, and Prowl, Sunstreaker and the other new 'classics' from a G1 Universe (whichever one it is), and eventually characters like Cheetor and Hot Shot also coming through.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

The way I see it is that 2006 Classics has a story: an alternate what happened next following from the US Marvel Comic.

IMO, 2008 Universe on the otherhand continues the Universe storyline of Transformers from alternate realities being plucked out of their regular time and space and fighting alongside/against each other. (Like Marvel Comic's Exiles series). Therefore you have Minicons plucked out of the Armada universe, you have Roadbuster and Dirge plucked out of Marvel UK, Ratbat and Springer from Dreamwave War Within, and Prowl, Sunstreaker and the other new 'classics' from a G1 Universe (whichever one it is), and eventually characters like Cheetor and Hot Shot also coming through.

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That's how Roller likes to think of it and it would be good if it were official but Hasbro themselves have said that this new Universe series is completly different to the original Universe line so this form of thinking is officially incorrect. Archer himself have said that the line has several continuities which have absolutely nothing to do with each other so there isn't one over arching story line engulfing them all like the original Universe line.

Those minicons in the Universe set officially belong to the Timelines continuity which have ZERO to do with Armada so its pretty much as careless stuff up on their end.

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Originally Posted by kup

That's how Roller likes to think of it and it would be good if it were official but Hasbro themselves have said that this new Universe series is completly different to the original Universe line so this form of thinking is officially incorrect. Archer himself have said that the line has several continuities which have absolutely nothing to do with each other so there isn't one over arching story line engulfing them all like the original Universe line.

Those minicons in the Universe set officially belong to the Timelines continuity which have ZERO to do with Armada so its pretty much as careless stuff up on their end.

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I didn't know that Hasbro said that. Is this some kind of twisted joke? I mean really, your launching a new line with similiar designs as last years "Classics" and your going to use the same name as a completely different series?!?!!!! What the heck?! Did Hasbro ever give a reason as to why they didnt continue using the "Classics" title?

This is ridiculous, there are 2 lines called 'Universe' and they are completely different continuities from each other?!!! Who came up with this stupid idea?

Why didnt they come up with a new name?!? Idiots!

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Originally Posted by roller

This is ridiculous, there are 2 lines called 'Universe' and they are completely different continuities from each other?!!! Who came up with this stupid idea?

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& we can all blame:

http://www.fieldsedge.com/images/archeroptimus.jpg

:l

I am sorry Roller, but that man holding the Movie Prime in Pulse's pic did say the following:

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Universe is not a storyline unto itself. It is a compilation of stories.

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You can read all about it here:

http://tformers.com/article.php?sid=9351

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Originally Posted by Pulse

& we can all blame:

http://www.fieldsedge.com/images/archeroptimus.jpg

:l

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I've got that shirt!

I like fiction as much as the next bloke here but really, I don't think Hasbro even give a rat's @$$ about the fiction. These are homages to pre-existing characters. It's as simple as that and the fiction is purely secondary. Treat them as you will, really. No one's right, no one's wrong and Hasbro don't even give a crap. Applying hypothesis01 means jack all no matter what fiction your trying to tenuously stick it onto.

The artists use the molds in their work b/c they like them. To them, as to us, they're awesome representations of classic characters.

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Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger

I've got that shirt!

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So then we can all blame you! :p

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Originally Posted by STL

I don't think Hasbro even give a rat's @$$ about the fiction.

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This is true. To be honest, I'm not so much concerned that Hasbro do _everything_ "right" - they'll never do it exactly the way I want it, and I can deal with that. Takara don't either (case in point, we still don't have a BT Ironhide... instead we got Broadblast). And obviously if they can't totally please one fan, they'll never 100% please the entire fandom. I don't expect either company to produce perfection every time, but I do lament a lack of effort & pride in a lot of the stuff produced by Hasbro.

you seem to be right STL

but still

its stupid, 2 lines called Universe and they are both officially not related.

I shall not cease to object to this stupidity