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What are people's thoughts on 3rd party transformers. While my view is they are fricking awsome, I could never afford them esp if you look on American sites, they seem to jack the price up more. Is the price stopping you? If not what else? What is the most you'd like to pay (without being too cheap) And if you already have bought them, were you 100% satisfied?:confused:
FP Warbot Springer is all kinds of awesome
love him dearly
got some others coming on the strength of my first 3rd party purchase :)
3rd party transformers..
What are people's thoughts on 3rd party transformers. While my view is they are fricking awsome, I could never afford them esp if you look on American sites, they seem to jack the price up more. Is the price stopping you? If not what else? What is the most you'd like to pay (without being too cheap) And if you already have bought them, were you 100% satisfied?:confused::rolleyes::D
I like a number of them, but I find cost can be the big cut-off point. I've bought most of the Fansproject and Maketoys figures, and often a bunch of the Unicron.com and Beelzeboss head replacement kits, and a couple of iGear's items.
However items like Feral Rex and these larger combiners, while looking fantastic, are (to me) too expensive for what they are and I have no interest in paying $500 for a combiner who may ultiamtely be too large for the rest of my figures.
The only 3rd party I own is the Perfect Effect Frenzy/Rumble tank things. The quality of these are terrible with bits falling off and not 'clicking in' properly. Most 3rd party TFs look great though but are expensive.
Ok, so are you saying for the price you paid, the value was certainly short of what you expected? How much did you buy it for and where from if you don't mind me asking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega Metro
...Value* and quality
Quality is all over the place. Not surprising when there are a couple dozen separate companies putting out anything from direct knockoffs to masterpiece grade originals.
I have Fansproject City Commander, Defender, Perfect Effect Motobot, Maketoy Green Giant and am happy with their design and material quality.
Ok yer, I'm hearing ya... So would you say the combiners or other third party transformers are worth at least $10 to $15 less for each bot? Would you buy them then? Last time I checked most places were selling them for roughly $95 + each figure yer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim Prime
How much we're they selling for at the time and would you prefer that they were $10 to $15 less?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofigure
I have a few fansproject bots and quakewave I paid out the nose for my insecticons and I'm not sure they were worth it but if id paid what they retailed for they defo would have been worth it, quakewave was definately money well spent I like the combiners but ultimately they feel a little bit expensive
It's very much on a case by case basis for me.
I paid a horrible amount for City Commander + Classics Ultra Magnus, but it's a beautiful piece and the enjoyment I get from it even now has made it worthwhile IMO - much like MP10. The Headrobots RotF Bludgeon upgrade kit was kind of pricey, but again worth it. Ditto for the Beelzeboss Goldbug set. On the other hand, my PE not-Reflector (the black one, 'cos I couldn't find a purple set at the time), while also a lovely piece, hasn't quite delivered the bang for the buck I would have liked - though it was from a Japanese specialty shop rather than a more economical option, so I might feel differently if it weren't for the Hero Gangu markup.
So far I've avoided combiners, but I'm a sucker for Predaking so I'm probably gonna cave for MMCs Feral Rex crew, and I suspect it'll work out much the same as City Commander - expensive, but ultimately worth it IMO.
Im a bit of a resident of the "basement" hehehe ...
For me I is a case to case basis as well. Some figures that I got are quite good. Most of the 3rd party figures I got so far have been of good quality, the abs plastic materials tend to be sturdier and non cheap in look and feel. Having said that not all 3rd parties can be of good quality. There are hits and there definitely misses. I buy from figures to add on accessories, to even , shhhhh, ehrmemm eherrm KO stuff....:o yeah I know it's why Im a basement resident along with HD hahahah...
Here's but a few of the 3rd party stuff I got...
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...psdd5b0f21.jpg
Most of these I am pleased, some Im just ...meh it'll do- like the add on kit for Superion Maximus - at the time it was released it was, "okay gotta get that" but once Ive gotten it... it has flaws which in a way is because of the base figures fault and not really because of the set... another is the add on accessories for a more G1esque generations Roadbuster - the quality of the material is horrible and brittle... so yeah it's all a bit of hits and misses...
One figure in particular which is a real waste of a good idea - the concept is good and would've been awesome but the execution is very much lacking IMO
---- Sonicron - which I did a review as well
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showth...onicron+review
Im glad this was a cheap purchase - which I would say should've been cheaper with the poor quality of the figure or better yet they should've polished the execution first before deciding to release it, coz honestly it's a shame - it would've been awesome had the execution of the figure been more of better quality. Even his Cassettes are a hit and miss, while the not-Ratbat is good, the not-Ravage is meh - but then I lok at MP Ravage and a deep sigh comes to me...this is an MP figure? really?
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...s/DSC02245.jpg
Do I think these are priced well... no.... I still buy em though. A lot of em enhance an existing figure e.g. the FP trailer add ons for city Commander and the Not-Rodimus, a couple are great and better incarnations of characters that for some reason HasTakTom seem to pay no attention to... until it get's a third party treatment hehehe but there are times that the 3rd party kinda wins over the official one ...but generally I think the prices could be a tad lower... of course since it's all of limited number in production that's unlikely to happen...but yeah, generally the pricing for the 3rd party stuff are high and at times bordering on, "are you kidding me" high...just look at the Crazy Devy add ons
Will I keep buying them , yup I will selectively, as some figures HasTakTom just wont release for some reason beyond me - e.g. Generations Arcee, or if the character it was based on is one I really like but the official one just wont cut it or is just as pricey...e.g. Botcon Chromedome figure vs Function x-1.... of course if it was priced really high... then I can live without em.
Now for the ehreem KOs.... well some people don't approve... me Im flexible... e.g. Dino cassettes - will I be able to afford the original... don't think so, even if I can would I buy them - the price they go these days since they are rare is quite prohibitive... I could prolly buy a heaps more of other stuff, heck It is very well my plane ticket cost already so NO. So I settled for the KO...and am still hoping for a proper Encore version......till then the Kos stay
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...s/DSC00898.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...s/DSC01442.jpg
and of course there are the 3rd party stuff that HaTakTom would definitely not manufacture in such a scale at all ocz well, it's not their product at all so if we ever get these , thanks HasTakTom, if not, well there always the 3rd party for it - e.g.
Energon Cubes
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...ctibles081.jpg
Good to see them altogether! Oh and how I wish I got that roadbuster kit!Quote:
Originally Posted by liegeprime
Late to the party on the warbots
But got warbot springer mib on eBay for like $40 only a few weeks back. Thought it was a score and a half :)
Got assaulter today and not sea spray.
Also got igear autobots headquarters delivered today.....overwhelmed so haven't opened yet hehe
Never understood the entitlement that these things bring. "Well Hasbro aren't doing it right now, thus they are awful and I must violate copyright."
Too many of them doing the same thing (often just because another group is working on it, it seems), no real quality checking, over complex or fiddly looking designs (plus the Dreamwave style they seem to be done in. thick, boxy, "bad arse")... yeah, I'm not a fan generally.
Yeah, can't say that has ever gone through my mind when I've bought a 3rd party TF. I see a TF, I like, I buy. It really is that simple ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
You obviously haven't really seen MakeToys, MMC or FansToys figures then. And Takara's QC is soooooooooo much better. Generations Blitzwing, MP Rodimus, MP Lambos and MP Laserbeak are 4 recent shining examples of Takara's superior QC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
It really depends on the company. Obviously some are better than others. And some figures are better than others, same as any major toy company. Just because they are a big company doesn't mean that their products will be problem free. Just look at Bandai's Macross VF-171 CF. And they're the biggest toy company in the world. You'd think that for the price you pay for one of those it'd be perfect :rolleyes:
Yep, you are clearly talking without any basis. It sounds as if you have never properly experienced 3rd party toys without a heavy ideological bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
I collect because I like. The rule is: 'Whoever makes the best toy wins my money.' Too bad Hasbro often loses.
And as Trent said, yeah not all 3rd parties are at the same level but the better known/popular ones (MMC, Maketoys, FP, etc) are miles and miles better than Hasbro/Tak-Tom when it comes to material/Design/Quality control. Hell, even TFC could be said that is better than Hasbro and they are far from great.
Another plus is that often 3rd parties will gladly replace any faulty part by providing free replacements if a post production error is found. They will even cater to fan preferences (like Quakewave's under arm hose arm) for free including shipping.
It's fine if you are against 3rd parties for 'intellectual property infringement' reasons. You would often be on the 'right' about them from that point of view but don't make up stuff that are generalized and largely incorrect to put 3rd parties down.
It's a bit easier to understand when you try thinking about it without the strawman arguments.;)
I imagine I'd probably have a bit more consideration for Hasbro's copyright if 1: they hadn't started the franchise by buying up a bunch of Japanese toys and reselling them under a different label, 2: they actually catered to the high-end fan market themselves (seriously, the market's there and they're largely choosing to ignore it - you can call it entitlement if you want, personally I see it more as consumers voting with their wallets), and 3: if they didn't happily skirt copyright themselves via the same 'similar but legally distinct' tricks for their own products when it's convenient for them, such as the alt-modes for Classicsverse Sideswipe and Sunstreaker. If HTT is down with doing it for their own products, I hardly think it's reasonable to condemn 3PP companies and/or fans for doing it to them. Legally most well-regarded 3PP companies manage to skate the thin line between 'resembles' and 'infringes on copyright', while "morally" (if you're into that sort of thing) they're just as guilty of said offense as 3PPs are. Knock-offs, those are kind of a different story IMO, but we don't seem to be talking about them here.
Add to all that the fact that - for my part at least - it's not costing HTT sales, inasmuch as I'll still happily buy official TFs that tickle my fancy just as I'll happily buy unofficial non-TFs that get my interest, and somehow I just can't quite find the energy for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth I'm apparently supposed to be doing on behalf of poor, violated HasTakTom.
The finish quality of my MP Lambor and TigerTrack were not great. Probably not the gold standard example of TakTom's quality IMO. Both suffered from the same 'issues' which leads me to think that it wasn't just a one off. My biggest gripe is the uneven paint job. You can see the black undercoat coming through the top coat of paint. Also the paint job along the edges where 2 colours meet is not sharp. There is a sizeable scratch on Red Lambor's bonnet when I opened the box for the first time (probably just unlucky). Looks as if some prick 'keyed' the bonnet with malicious intent. The Lamborghini badge on the bonnet is indecipherable. Supposively Lamborghini OKed the licence??? Having said this, the joints are tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
As for 3rd party TF, I've been vastly impressed with the ones I've got. I only have a few but Quakewave & Planet X Genesis are freakin top notch. Expensive yes, but worth every cent.
Yeah, Hasbro/Tomy would be pretty hypocritical if they start calling out 3rd parties for 'indirect' copyright infringement when they are just as guilty themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Universe Sunstreaker, Universe Sideswipe, Universe Prowl, etc, etc. It is clear what those car modes are supposed to be but with enough changes to not directly infringe copyright - The same trick as 3rd parties!
Is that sarcasm? I am afraid I must disagree if not as though I have not experienced TakTom's Blitzwing, I found Rodimus to be a lemon filled with flaws that should have been corrected before release. While my Laserbeak was fine, Kup's was a disaster that was miss-assembled from the get go, meanwhile my MP Soundwave has missing paint apps, so while Taktom might be better than Hasbro most of the toys you mention I would not consider good examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
Conversely the quality of the most recent Maketoys and MMC acquisitions make TakTom's QC look sloppy.
All and all I'd say QC is hit and miss with all companies, but I imagine with the smaller third party companies with their much lower productions numbers and much smaller set ups are sometimes able to make fixes or changes easier late into the production process than a mega company like Hasbro.
I'm far from pleased with the cost of Third party toys, but when it comes to quality Hasbro seem to be in a race to the bottom, each successive wave of toys seems cheaper or shoddier than the last, so if I want a decent robot toy seems like I have to got to TakTom, Bandai or a third party. What good is a cheaper collectible toy if it's forgotten and thrown aside in an instant? So for a toy that is great an memorable then I'm happy to pay a little (or sometimes a lot) extra for.
I think Trent's post is supposed to be sarcasm but it fits well as it highlights how ridiculous it is to say that those toys have 'superior' QC.
Yes it was. Sorry all, should have made it clearer. I forget that you can't hear the tone of my voice when I'm typing. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Zed
Yeah, right, I should totally just start buying the third party toys! Absolutely, I'm totally wrong to even question them! Never mind the fact that most of them are to me, and this is far more important to me than anything (I really don't care about the copyright too much, but I really hate entitlement (and that's what it is) and I'm becoming more and more resigned to the fact that I have to accept the people who keep using 'privilege' as a negative are completely right), incredibly aesthetically unpleasing.
Oh right! Which they did illegally not getting any licenses or anything, right? It was completely Hasbro just doing what they want regardless, right?Quote:
1: they hadn't started the franchise by buying up a bunch of Japanese toys and reselling them under a different label,
This supposed high-end collector market keeps jumping up and down for attention, but I really don't see it as big. Just loud. I see no proof that it's something that would be worth the investment from either company. Otherwise it would be there from Hasbro or TakaraTomy.
Not at all. If you don't like/want 'em, by all means don't buy 'em. But that doesn't mean you're entitled (and a sense of entitlement is exactly what it is) to condemn those of us who do choose to partake of them without our having the right of reply. You're just as free to share your opinion and/or to vote with your wallet as anyone else - but that cuts both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
You mean, like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
The market for high-end TFs is by definition there, or else 3PPs wouldn't exist.There's a slight difference between creating something yourself and buying up someone else's work and claiming it for your own, hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
And again, if we're talking legality, then as long as the 3PPs skirt that thin line between 'outright rip-off' and 'just different enough', they're in the clear. If we're going beyond legality and into the somewhat more complex realm of moral integrity, then as mentioned your righteous ire is just as applicable to HasTakTom themselves and your defense of them while condemning 3PPs is a tad hypocritical.
Again, it makes more sense without replacing what I actually wrote with a bunch of clumsy strawman argument(s).:)
Guys can we please keep the language G-rated? Thanks (:
Oh, I don't mean that people shouldn't enjoy them. Do! Absolutely do! I just meant for me (and was probably not clear) that most of them are dog ugly, to me. There are a few where I've definitely gone to get (like Warbot Defender before Generations Springer was released), and it was just the the price that turned me off. And yeah, I guess the the way that a lot of fans go around colours my perception a bit. Having seen some really bizarre arguments to justify it all, whereas I guess I also don't have the G1 love that a lot of people do. I grew up with G1 yeah, but outside of a handful toys, about fifteen season 2 episodes and TF:TM, I was not exposed to much of it so I don't see salivate at the thought of a whole bunch of third party companies doing the same few gestalts and popular characters over and over (and then when they go out on a limb, things like the recent Not!Chromedome for example, just doesn't seem to work out the best) and make Hasbro and TT out to be villains for not doing it themselves. I mean, sure people want their Masterpiece scaled Shockwave (some of them look really nice), but do we really need third party Soundwaves? Starscreams? Is anyone crying out for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Sometimes it really feels like there's two Transformers fandoms. The general fandom, and this place, which is reasonable and has it's head screwed on right.
Harmony Gold is company that seemingly runs on crazy defending a license that they won't let lapse cause they've got nothing else at all.;) The license for the original toy was all gotten on the up and up, and it's referencing that.Quote:
You're just as free to share your opinion and/or to vote with your wallet as anyone else - but that cuts both ways.You mean, like this?
The market for high-end TFs is by definition there, or else 3PPs wouldn't exist.There's a slight difference between creating something yourself and buying up someone else's work and claiming it for your own, hey.
The Masterpieces are a little different, being aimed at collectors, but not, if you get what I mean? Since the increase in the lines output and the change in scale, it seems less like "high end collectors" and more "fans of the G1 cartoon but not much else, here have some toys that look like what you remember". They've been made a little less "high end" so to speak. I'm not sure I'm actually articulating this bit very well at all.
What sort of production runs do the third party products have, by the way? I mean, if they're not exactly large runs I really don't see that that proves the high-end collectors market is this gold mine waiting to be tapped.
As I said, my perceptions of the third party products might also be coloured by some downright bizarre comments, arguments and actions I've seen from other Transformers communities.Quote:
And again, if we're talking legality, then as long as the 3PPs skirt that thin line between 'outright rip-off' and 'just different enough', they're in the clear. If we're going beyond legality and into the somewhat more complex realm of moral integrity, then as mentioned your righteous ire is just as applicable to HasTakTom themselves and your defense of them while condemning 3PPs is a tad hypocritical.
Again, it makes more sense without replacing what I actually wrote with a bunch of clumsy strawman argument(s).:)
Hasbro and TT do plenty of dodgy things. Definitely. Cars are a blind spot to me, so you got me there. I didn't see "Lamborghini just different enough to avoid licencing issues" I see "red sports car". So yeah, until I read that I wouldn't have had a clue. But yeah that is dodgy, and unfortunate. I'm actually surprised that they wouldn't just get actual licenses for non-movie stuff thrown in with the movie stuff, but again, cars are not my thing, so for all I know the licensing for the movies prevented this because of the companies involved or something.
If these designers and all are so talented, though, if the products are so good, why don't they make a splash with original designs? Or the interest really does end with the character, which then does make it seem more like it's less about the product and more of an "I want it now so I must have it now" mentality. I mean, if they're sound designs and productions they should live or die based on existing fictions from the 80's should they? Plus, with the aesthetic being often unpleasing, I think some of that stems from thinking some of the moulds created would just be better off being completely original, and the displeasure in my (rather crazy) mind just comes from some of them looking, I don't know, forced, more than anything.
If you don't like them, that's fair enough. Just don't act as if "they are dog ugly" just because you don't like them. This is specially so when you are clearly in a minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
No single 3rd party is doing "the same few gestalts" over and over again. What we have seen however is different companies producing their own rendition of Predaking which I will admit is a bit strange but gives consumers the chance to choose the best one of their liking. There are also plenty of other Gestalts being produced like Menasor and Computron plus upgrades to some of Hasrbro's design failures like FOC Bruticus.Quote:
I was not exposed to much of it so I don't see salivate at the thought of a whole bunch of third party companies doing the same few gestalts and popular characters over and over (and then when they go out on a limb, things like the recent Not!Chromedome for example, just doesn't seem to work out the best) and make Hasbro and TT out to be villains for not doing it themselves. I mean, sure people want their Masterpiece scaled Shockwave (some of them look really nice), but do we really need third party Soundwaves? Starscreams? Is anyone crying out for them?
I have no idea what you mean about Chromedome. That turned out to be a fantastic toy with innovative transformation engineering.
When it comes to MPs, you are clearly misinformed. The 3rd party Soundwave got cancelled the moment that Tomy announced the official one. The only MP Strarscreams that I am aware of is the Igear knock off from some years ago. Other Starscreams have been unique toy renditions of the character (HOS, F-22).
The US fan boards can be very strange. If you are only getting 'fan views' from them, don't expect to get anything defined or straight forward. Everyone just shoots anything.Quote:
Sometimes it really feels like there's two Transformers fandoms. The general fandom, and this place, which is reasonable and has it's head screwed on right.
That is very true but it doesn't change that Hasbro did use the likeness of a Valkyrie on their 'retooled' Skystriker. I know the attempt was to make the Joe vehicle as close to G1 Jetfire as possible but they did not think of what G1 Jetfire actually is.Quote:
Harmony Gold is company that seemingly runs on crazy defending a license that they won't let lapse cause they've got nothing else at all.;) The license for the original toy was all gotten on the up and up, and it's referencing that.
3rd parties have proven that there is a considerable collector market out there. Enough to sustain companies that produce competing products such as the two Devastators and now three Predakings. Sorry but saying that 'there isn't a large enough market' is just obsolete nonsense. The way the 3rd parties have industrialized and grown so quickly from tapping into this neglected and largely untapped market proves otherwise.Quote:
The Masterpieces are a little different, being aimed at collectors, but not, if you get what I mean? Since the increase in the lines output and the change in scale, it seems less like "high end collectors" and more "fans of the G1 cartoon but not much else, here have some toys that look like what you remember". They've been made a little less "high end" so to speak. I'm not sure I'm actually articulating this bit very well at all.
We don't really know but it is certainly in the thousands. They are also flexible enough to do second and even third runs if they cannot meet demand. Yes, it is a large 'collector' market.Quote:
What sort of production runs do the third party products have, by the way? I mean, if they're not exactly large runs I really don't see that that proves the high-end collectors market is this gold mine waiting to be tapped.
It is always wise to judge the source of the information before you take in the information itself.Quote:
As I said, my perceptions of the third party products might also be coloured by some downright bizarre comments, arguments and actions I've seen from other Transformers communities.
You not recognizing Hasbro/Tomy's dodgy moves doesn't mean they are not doing it. The tricks they have done with the cars it's spot on the same tricks 3rd parties use to get around copyright. A 'pot calls the kettle black' argument. However if you want to argue that there is intellectual property infringement and the 3rd parties are taking advantage of Hasbro's properties to profit themselves, then you would have a far better argument that is difficult to deny.Quote:
Hasbro and TT do plenty of dodgy things. Definitely. Cars are a blind spot to me, so you got me there. I didn't see "Lamborghini just different enough to avoid licencing issues" I see "red sports car". So yeah, until I read that I wouldn't have had a clue. But yeah that is dodgy, and unfortunate. I'm actually surprised that they wouldn't just get actual licenses for non-movie stuff thrown in with the movie stuff, but again, cars are not my thing, so for all I know the licensing for the movies prevented this because of the companies involved or something.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. You want 3rd parties to just do strictly G1 characters? It doesn't work that way plus that's what Masterpiece is for.Quote:
If these designers and all are so talented, though, if the products are so good, why don't they make a splash with original designs? Or the interest really does end with the character, which then does make it seem more like it's less about the product and more of an "I want it now so I must have it now" mentality. I mean, if they're sound designs and productions they should live or die based on existing fictions from the 80's should they? Plus, with the aesthetic being often unpleasing, I think some of that stems from thinking some of the moulds created would just be better off being completely original, and the displeasure in my (rather crazy) mind just comes from some of them looking, I don't know, forced, more than anything.
If you don't like the 3rd party designs, that's your issue and you are in a minority. However don't act as if that is the absolute truth as given several of your comments show you are clearly misinformed. Several 3rd parties are not really attempting to do 'geewunn' at all and are moving towards their own unique interpretations or basing them on contemporary popular fiction.
There have been 3rd parties that do 'articulated G1' toys like one of the Predakings on offer but they are normally less popular than the fully modernized interpretations.
TO ME. Generally, a lot of the designs are dog ugly. TO ME. I PERSONALLY find them mostly unappealing aesthetically. ME. MY EYES. There are the occasional design that I think is fantastic and would love to see Mass produced so everyone could own it, but that is rare. TO ME. Do you want me to clarify that I'm talking exclusively ABOUT MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT some more? Because it seems like you're not grasping I'm talking about my opinion on designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
And it was at this point, I have realised that I can't say anything bad about third parties. Or I'm a shill for Hasbro or TT. Or I'm an idiot. So whatever, you guys like them, that's awesome. I'm glad you do.
But I don't. And just because I'm in the minority doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid. Or I guess it does because that's the way things work in Fandom.
You need to chill dude and your attitude is more the problem than whatever opinion you may have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
A discussion on the merits/flaws of 3rd party styles would have actually been an interesting one as even among 3rd party fans, we have differing preferences which we do discuss often. Unfortunately the way you came about it was all messed up because of your generalized bias which you now seem to be trying to backpedal from.
Anyways, to each their own. We know your views and we made ours clear. There is no need to take this further unless you actually want to discuss something properly without all the emo and self entitled 'opinions'.
On a thread-related note, I'd suggest where this all started going pear-shaped was that this post......maybe left out this bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
That kinda made it seem like a personal attack on those of us here who enjoy 3PP stuff, and it all kind of went South from there. I'd suggest we all tone this discussion down a notch and try to continue in a more calm, considered way, yeah?:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
With that all (hopefully) cleared up, if we all do want to continue the conversation while playing nice (which I'd quite like to do), here's what I came up with.Actually, I totally have to pay this. Some members of the fanbase can be crazily demanding, over 3PP stuff and official stuff both - these are just toys for crying out loud, not matters of life-and-death. Thank Heavens OTCA is usually an exception to the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
So yeah, I can get where you're coming on this, but I'd respectfully suggest that maybe you're making a bit too strong a link between 3PPs and certain subsections of their supporters. A lot of the fandom-at-large irks me as well, but that's a different issue from the actual products themselves. It's the same with anything really - I really enjoy Game of Thrones, but so do a lot of people I work with and some of them are jerks IMO.
And just to reiterate, it's totally your choice as to whether you buy 'em or not. If you don't like 'em, by all means don't buy 'em - and that goes for official HasTakTom stuff too.IIRC the new scale is because TakTom wanted to 'reset' the line so as to be in scale with MP10/Optimus V.2. The new Optimus is kind of the new benchmark, if you will, and the rest of the series (except for the remolds of Starcream) are based around it. AFAIK MP01 wasn't really intended as the beginning of a line/series but rather as a standalone figure, and TakTom only started making more MP figures after it was well received. The other thing to remember is that the MP lines are made by TakTom for the Japanese market first and foremost, and then (sometimes) imported by Hasbro - high-end toys for adults are definitely big business over here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
To put it more simply, I think what the new scale and production numbers (are meant to) represent is less of a 'cheapening' of the line and more of trying for more consistent approach to it.:)
Truth be told, as another non-car-y-type I didn't really know that either before I read about it in a TFW thread on the same topic as this one. I think what it boils down to is pretty much that 1: it's cheaper to skirt around it rather than pay the fees (if the companies will even let you, i.e. Volkswagon tends to frown on being associated with war toys), and 2: HTT would have to get/pay for permission/rights from a lot of different companies and for a lot of individual vehicles. And then there's the issue of paint-jobs/sponsors - if they want to faithfully reproduce, say, G1 Jazz or Smokescreen they have to get permission to use the colour schemes, sponsor logos and racing numbers as well as the car models, i.e. G1 Mirage, G1 Smokescreen, G1 Wheeljack, amongst others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
It's all pretty big and complicated, but I think that's the general gist of it.They're not that big, but AFAIK that's more to do with the financial resources and mass-market access the usually-small 3PP groups have than with the levels of demand (which are, to be fair, smaller than regular-line TFs-for-kids - 'the fans' make up about 10% of the TF market IIRC). It costs quite a bit to produce a TF - official or unofficial - and while a major multinational corporation like Hasbro can afford to do massive runs, a little niche producer doesn't have quite so much cash to put into production and/or access to major chain retailers like WalMart. Hasbro (who owns a lot of franchises besides Transformers) can make their profits by dint of sheer numbers (and even then has production budget limits for each price-point/production wave) and widespread distribution, whereas 3PPs are a niche market and don't have the weight of G.I. Joe and My Little Pony to bargain with manufacturers and mass-release retail outlets with. Factories will often throw in the creation of of the molds for HaTakTom for free because the sheer size of the orders allow them to absorb the cost, whereas 3PPs have to pay for it themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
I guess the best analogy I can think of is this: imagine a local gourmet restaurant (let's call it 3rd Party Pizza) compared to, say, McDonalds. McDonalds can sell their product for much cheaper and at a much greater scale than the local place, but the local joint serves (arguably) better food - unless, like yourself, you're not a "pizza" fan (which again, is fair enough, as long as you allow other people their own personal tastes as you'd want them to allow you yours). Because of their greater reach and sales numbers, McHasbro has greater purchasing/bargaining power (i.e. they can bulk buy much greater quantities and negotiate better prices from their suppliers), while 3PPizza is just some local specialty restaurant. While they're not raking in the billions that McHasbro is, 3PPizza is still turning over enough of a profit to get by and to expand their menu (try our burgers!), and a reasonable number of diners like their food enough that they're willing to pay the higher price to eat there. In the meantime, McHasbro's Japanese partner/counterpart has introduced the premium "Angus-san" range, and while it's not as big a seller as their usual "Deluxe burger" range, they're still selling more Angus-san Burgers than 3PPizza simply because it's more widely available. If everyone was really satisfied enough with McHasbro that the higher prices for 3PPizza just weren't worth it to them, enough people would stop eating there that 3PPizza would go out of business.
The market for 3PP stuff doesn't necessarily have to be Bigger Than Jesus, it just has to be big enough to make enough to be sustainable - and hopefully a little extra. If it wasn't profitable then 3PP groups would run at a loss and would all have gone out of business...but they're still around. The very fact that the industry exists is proof that there's demand enough to support it, even at the higher prices 3PP stuff usually sells for.
Again, I'd suggest that your dislike of 3PP stuff is largely due to your conflating them with an unpleasant subset of their fanbase (as well as you personally often not liking the aesthetic). It's kind of like saying that a convicted pedophile likes classical music, therefore I hate classical musicians 'cos it sucks and they're all pedophiles. Hate the pedophile, not the music.:) If you don't like classical music because you don't like the sound (i.e. I think it sucks), fair enough, but if you start tarring all classical musicians/composers/fans as pedophiles that's kind of a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
Re. the first question, I seem to recall FansProject's Steel Core did pretty well, though I don't have one myself. All the ones I've found have been a bit pricey for my liking.
Perhaps more to the point, barring outright rip-offs like iGear's Faith Leader, to a certain extent they are making a splash with original designs. They're just based on/homages to/interpretations of old, often-beloved childhood characters - it's a little bit like the way that The Lion King is more or less Hamlet, only with lions. The designs they produce are - usually - their own *cough*let'snottalkaboutUniqueToysBeasticons*cough *. It's like how Movieverse Fracture is an homage to Gobots Crasher, but is still a new design (i.e. the Classics Mirage mold).
That said, the nostalgia effect certainly plays a big part, at least for me. Bear in mind that (IIRC) the 3PP scene only really took off after FansProject City Commander, which was just an add-on kit that gave Classics Magnus a trailer. Most of the 3PP stuff I have are add-on kits that - for me - improve/'complete' an official release that to me was kind of 'missing' something. It's less "I want it now so I must have it now" than it is "This is available, and I want it, and I can afford it, so why not." RotF Bludgeon is a sweet toy on his own, but the swords were thick enough that they were breaking his hands and his head was kinda meh. With the Headrobots kit (and having swapped his thighs around), he looks great and I don't have to worry about breaking him just by having him hold his weapons. For full figures, it's much the same - I very much doubt that the Predacons (my favourite combiner team and some of my favourite characters) are on TakTom's "Masterpieces-To-Do" list, and MMC is releasing a set that I like the look of, and I can afford it, so why not? I already have a set of G1 Predacons so the reissue isn't something that interests me, but I would like an updated set of improved Predacons, just like I happily bought MP10 or the various Classicsverse figures I have.
If I'd rather pay a bit more for a decent burger from the local pizza joint than grab a Spicy McChicken from the local Maccas, or if I reckon that the Big Mac I grabbed for lunch would go better with some chips from the local fish-and-chip shop than those god-awful Maccas French Fries, that's a little bit different from "I want it now so I must have it now gimme gimme gimme WAAAAAH!".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Epic. :)
Oh yeah, that was just meant to be pure compliment about how reasonable this place generally is and wasn't meant to be an attack on people who like third party at all. I'm very sorry if it came across that way. In fact it was complimenting the people here who do buy third party as something that they genuinely enjoy rather than for any other reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I'm aware I was a bit aggressive and I did come across unfortunately a bit righteous, I just felt that I was getting told that it doesn't matter what I think of them, I'm wrong. So I am sorry, that just raised my hackles for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the board and I should have walked away instead of typing madly.
Yep, definitely. They are just toys, afterall, and everyone (myself included, absolutely) should chill more overall. We should be happy that there is so much great stuff coming from all angles of the franchise we love. IDW, Hasbro, TT, 3PP, etc.Quote:
With that all (hopefully cleared up), if we all do want to continue the conversation while playing nice (which I'd quite like to do), here's what I came up with.
Actually, I totally have to pay this. Some members of the fanbase can be crazily demanding, over 3PP stuff and official stuff both - these are just toys for crying out loud, not matters of life-and-death. Thank Heavens OTCA is usually an exception to the rule.
Yeah, I do probably let the louder more unpleasant sections colour my thoughts a bit and I am trying to work on that. Mostly because of this place. I'm also a bit of a prick, unfortunately. Also something I'm working on.Quote:
So yeah, I can get where you're coming on this, but I'd respectfully suggest that maybe you're making a bit too strong a link between 3PPs and certain subsections of their supporters. A lot of the fandom-at-large irks me as well, but that's a different issue from the actual products themselves. It's the same with anything really - I really enjoy Game of Thrones, but so do a lot of people I work with and some of them are jerks IMO.
Yeah, high-end market in Japan is insanely lucrative and I think watching that is another reason why I have the opinion that it's not going to be quite as lucrative for Hasbro outside of certain special, limited releases. Not enough to make it a constant presence at least.Quote:
And just to reiterate, it's totally your choice as to whether you buy 'em or not. If you don't like 'em, by all means don't buy 'em - and that goes for official HasTakTom stuff too.IIRC the new scale is because TakTom wanted to 'reset' the line so as to be in scale with MP10/Optimus V.2. The new Optimus is kind of the new benchmark, if you will, and the rest of the series (except for the remolds of Starcream) are based around it. AFAIK MP01 wasn't really intended as the beginning of a line/series but rather as a standalone figure, and TakTom only started making more MP figures after it was well received. The other thing to remember is that the MP lines are made by TakTom for the Japanese market first and foremost, and then (sometimes) imported by Hasbro - high-end toys for adults are definitely big business over here.
And to make it more avaliable I'd say. They clearly realised at some point, a smaller, more consistent scale (I haven't actually touched any of the new MPs, unfortunately, so I have no idea if they seem lesser quality, they certainly don't look it at all) would allow more people to enjoy the line and allow them to be more flexible with what they do and expansive.Quote:
To put it more simply, I think what the new scale and production numbers (are meant to) represent is less of a 'cheapening' of the line and more of trying for more consistent approach to it.:)
I'm actually surprised that they weren't able to get some kind of licensing for Generations/Universe/Classics stuff thrown in with the movie, but I guess that's licensing for you. Insanely complicated.Quote:
Truth be told, as another non-car-y-type I didn't really know that either before I read about it in a TFW thread on the same topic as this one. I think what it boils down to is pretty much that 1: it's cheaper to skirt around it rather than pay the fees (if the companies will even let you, i.e. Volkswagon tends to frown on being associated with war toys), and 2: HTT would have to get/pay for permission/rights from a lot of different companies and for a lot of individual vehicles. And then there's the issue of paint-jobs/sponsors - if they want to faithfully reproduce, say, G1 Jazz or Smokescreen they have to get permission to use the colour schemes, sponsor logos and racing numbers as well as the car models, i.e. G1 Mirage, G1 Smokescreen, G1 Wheeljack, amongst others. It's all pretty big and complicated, but I think that's the general gist of it.
They're not that big, but AFAIK that's more to do with the financial resources and mass-market access the usually-small 3PP groups have than with the levels of demand (which are, to be fair, smaller than regular-line TFs-for-kids - 'the fans' make up about 10% of the TF market IIRC). It costs quite a bit to produce a TF - official or unofficial - and while a major multinational corporation like Hasbro can afford to do massive runs, a little niche producer doesn't have quite so much cash to put into production and/or access to major chain retailers like WalMart. Hasbro (who owns a lot of franchises besides Transformers) can make their profits by dint of sheer numbers (and even then has production budget limits for each price-point/production wave) and widespread distribution, whereas 3PPs are a niche market and don't have the weight of G.I. Joe and My Little Pony to bargain with manufacturers and mass-release retail outlets with. Factories will often throw in the creation of of the molds for HaTakTom for free because the sheer size of the orders allow them to absorb the cost, whereas 3PPs have to pay for it themselves.[/quote]
Absolutely understand what you're saying (and will just seem like a big ball of hate, when I say I read it as Hungry Hasbros, just because I don't eat Maccas :P). If you can items that satisfy you more in the end, even if the cost is higher, why wouldn't you? I know there is a certain demand there, but the reason I was genuinely curious if they ever said production run sizes or if the items were numbered or anything, was because if you know they're runs of say 500 or less (and I could definitely see that as an extra reason why people are so passionate and supportive of 3PP groups (and this isn't meant as an attack or a negative), beyond the fact that a lot of people do genuinely like the product) then I can see why fans would see that as reason for Hasbro to follow the TT route, and I can also see on the other hand why Hasbro would be thinking "well yes, but it's just not enough to invest in".Quote:
I guess the best analogy I can think of is this: imagine a local restaurant (let's call it 3rd Party Pizza) compared to, say, McDonalds. McDonalds can sell their product for much cheaper and at a much greater scale than the local place, but the local place serves (arguably) better food - unless, like yourself, you're not a "pizza" fan (which again, is fair enough, as long as you allow other people their own personal tastes as you'd want them to allow you yours). Because of their greater reach and sales numbers, McHasbro has greater purchasing/bargaining power (i.e. they can bulk buy much greater quantities and negotiate better prices from their suppliers), while 3PPizza is just some local restaurant. While they're not raking in the billions that McHasbro is, 3PPizza is still turning over enough of a profit to get by and to expand their menu (try our burgers!), and a reasonable number of diners like their food enough that they're willing to pay the higher price to eat there. In the meantime, McHasbro's Japanese partner/counterpart has introduced the premium "Angus-san" range, and while it's not as big a seller as their usual "Deluxe burger" range, they're still selling more Angus-san Burgers than 3PPizza simply because it's more widely available. If everyone was really satisfied enough with McHasbro that the higher prices for 3PPizza just weren't worth it to them, enough people would stop eating there that 3PPizza would go out of business.The market for 3PP stuff doesn't necessarily have to be Bigger Than Jesus, it just has to be big enough to make enough to be sustainable - and hopefully a little extra. If it wasn't profitable then 3PP groups would run at a loss and would all have gone out of business...but they're still around. The very fact that the industry exists is proof that there's demand enough to support it, even at the higher prices 3PP stuff usually sells for.
But I do expect Hasbro to be taking a few more risks and do things a little differently, as they have with things like Metroplex (did anybody expect him? At that size?) and starting to include comics with all the upcoming Generations figures. Who knows what we could be seeing soon? It would be nice if they would take a few more risks and be a little more radical though. I mean, that's what they seem to be doing with the My Little Pony Franchise and that seems more precarious than the 'former franchise (thought maybe that's why they do tend to play it very conservatively a lot of them time).
Too true. One other sticking point for me is definitely the price, so I'm very much in the dark about the actual products. I understand why the price is what it is, but it'll pretty much prevent me from ever being able to pick them up without a lottery win. (The only times I have dropped crazy amounts were for United Stepper and TFCC Slipstream, Circuit and Jackpot when I was made redundant.) My remark about QC in the original post was based on second hand accounts, I do admit that.Quote:
Again, I'd suggest that your dislike of 3PP stuff is largely due to your conflating them with an unpleasant subset of their fanbase (as well as you personally often not liking the aesthetic). It's kind of like saying that a convicted pedophile likes classical music, therefore I hate classical musicians 'cos it sucks and they're all pedophiles. Hate the pedophile, not the music.:) If you don't like classical music because you don't like the sound (i.e. I think it sucks), fair enough, but if you start tarring all classical musicians/composers/fans as pedophiles that's kind of a problem.
I hadn't heard of Beasticons before and that comment makes me very pleased about that. But, wow, that Faith Leader? Not cool iGear. It is good to see some companies trying new things. I hadn't heard of Steel Core before, but I have he does looks pretty good and I could definitely get behind more of this.Quote:
Re. the first question, I seem to recall FansProject's Steel Core did pretty well, though I don't have one myself. All the ones I've found have been a bit pricey for my liking. Perhaps more to the point, barring outright rip-offs like iGear's Faith Leader, to a certain extent they are making a splash with original designs. They're just based on/homages to/interpretations of old, often-beloved childhood characters - it's a little bit like the way that The Lion King is more or less Hamlet, only with lions. The designs they produce are - usually - their own *cough*let'snottalkaboutUniqueToysBeasticons*cough *. It's like how Movieverse Fracture is an homage to Gobots Crasher, but is still a new design (i.e. the Classics Mirage mold).
I guess I'm a total hypocrite, because I'm fine with the add-on kits and, like, Repolabels as expansions. I have no justification for that. I really don't. Someone doing a Predaking is understandable. It's probably not going to happen from TT, but then suddenly there was like three or four different Predacon groups, and it just seemed really redundant. More choice for everyone is a good thing, sure, but it makes it seem less about making it available and more about dibbs and getting in first and showing the other 3PP whose boss, which is a little unfortunate.Quote:
That said, the nostalgia effect certainly plays a big part, at least for me. Bear in mind that (IIRC) the 3PP scene only really took off after FansProject City Commander, which was just an add-on kit that gave Classics Magnus a trailer. Most of the 3PP stuff I have are add-on kits that - for me - improve/'complete' an official release that to me was kind of 'missing' something. It's less "I want it now so I must have it now" than it is "This is available, and I want it, and I can afford it, so why not." RotF Bludgeon is a sweet toy on his own, but the swords were thick enough that they were breaking his hands and his head was kinda meh. With the Headrobots kit (and having swapped his thighs around), he looks great and I don't have to worry about breaking him just by having him hold his weapons. For full figures, it's much the same - I very much doubt that the Predacons (my favourite combiner team and some of my favourite characters) are on TakTom's "Masterpieces-To-Do" list, and MMC is releasing a set that I like the look of, and I can afford it, so why not? I already have a set of G1 Predacons so the reissue isn't something that interests me, but I would like an updated set of improved Predacons, just like I happily bought MP10 or the various Classicsverse figures I have. If I'd rather pay a bit more for a decent burger from the local pizza joint than grab a Spicy McChicken from the local Maccas, or if I reckon that the Big Mac I grabbed for lunch would go better with some chips from the local fish-and-chip shop than those god-awful Maccas French Fries, that's a little bit different from "I want it now so I must have it now gimme gimme gimme WAAAAAH!".
I will admit, I saw some 3PP Targetmasters that I really thought were awesome. I think it was Optimus, Megs, Soundwave and Screamer. I thought "now, this is what I like. Unique, interesting stuff that nobody else is doing." They just looked really cool. And to go back to Steel Core, I looked around that wiki link and saw the Fansproject Insecticons remoulded to make the alt-modes vehicles, and they look pretty good. But then, if I had come across them in the future without being told they were the Insecticons already I would assume they were original characters in Insecticon colours (love me some purple toys)--so again, something I could really get behind if the quality is there.
Will definitely understand any tl;dr here.;)
Truly compulsory reading.
I think I've understood all the discussion points except at the point where pedophiles, classical music and a fast food chain (which I won't name) entered the story. Are there any other analogies that can be used to better highlight the argument?
I'll see what I can do. Short versions/summaries, then alternate analogies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatran
1: the fact that some of the fans of a certain thing can be ****s (insert whatever 4-letter-word you want in there) isn't necessarily a reflection on the thing itself. Imagine a sports team with a small group of particularly obnoxious, racist, sexist fans - it's not necessarily the sports team's fault, or even representative of their fans in general, but the ****-y fans still wear their colours and it can still put people off the team anyway. Alternately, Hitler was apparently a vegetarian, but that doesn't mean all vegetarians - or produce farmers - are Nazis.
I was just suggesting that there might be a bit of (unintentional) guilt by association going on, in other words.
2: Bigger organisations/companies have greater purchasing power and more widespread reach than smaller/niche ones. Hasbro has more 'pull'/influence over their suppliers and more widespread retail presence than 3PPs in the same way that Coles or Woolworths has more power and reach than some local mom-'n-pop organic-food store.
It's a little bit of an oversimplification, but that's the basic gist of it.
****s That's my login password. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Holy moly! I just got back from Bathurst and this is some pretty intense posting to come back to.
All I can say is that everyone has their own opinions and interests, if everyone had the same opinions and interests then the world would be a very, very boring place.
...erm...wow! I really opened a can of worms didn't I? Well I can see mixed opinions about these but either way, everyone is god damn passionate about their transformers lol... Any way that's good to know because I am almost ready to open up my Aussy web company that is dedicated to importing transformers - hasbro ones that havent showed up in Aus, TakTom with out over pricing and ofcorse Tp transformers...and keeping the cost low because I for one am sick of these jacked up prices... The main reason I asked was that I was curious to see people's opinions on 3rd party and I think I received my answer! If your interested in me sending you a link when the site is up and running, add me on Skype at - evandouglas86 cheers everyone, and I hope you can all support me
Well good luck with that , and remember to post it up when you got it up and running , ill most welcome a cheaper postage rate for the figures . :)Quote:
Originally Posted by evandouglas86