The G1 Classicsverse Checklist thread!

[GoktimusPrime]

I do count SeaSpray, yes, so does Hasbro, and so would a LOT of potential newbies reading this list.

Yes, this is the bias comes from, from every person (obviously myself included), but for SeaSpray, we have Word Of God from Hasbro, and IDW G1 appearances.

Hasbro sometimes counts Sea Spray as G1. Other times they count him as Movieverse as evidenced by his tech specs bio -- written by Hasbro!

And IDW comics have also placed Sea Spray in movie continuity too - re: "United For The Universe" #2, Chapter 3 "Bludgeon's Revenge".

Two canonical sources that place Sea Spray in the movie universe. The main supporting evidence for Sea Spray has come from Hasbro Q&A. Also, please refresh my memory -- precisely which IDW issue did Sea Spray appear as a G1 character?

Anyway, the fact remains that there are official sources which direct Sea Spray as G1 and as movieverse... so it seems that the "Word of God" (as you put it) is rather contradictory on this issue.

If you're not counting him, then we should get rid of Ratchet and Ironhide, who don't look much like THEIR original toys either...

Irrelevant. Sea Spray and Bludgeon's dubious status has nothing to do with their visual aesthetics, but more to do with how official sources have classified these toys. e.g. Bludgeon has clearly marketed Bludgeon as a ROTF toy - however the argument of authorial intent can make his classification dubious. Sea Spray has been marketed as a movieverse toy (though not as clearly as Bludgeon - remember that the tech spec bios are part of the toy's marketing) -- both characters have also been portrayed as being part of the movie universe by officially sanctioned continuity, however again the argument of authorial intent can create ambiguity, and in Sea Spray's case, also comments from Hasbro Q&A also creates further dispute.

Universe/Henkei Ironhide and Ratchet on the other hand have - AFAIK - never had any canonical material that places them outside of the Neo-G1 continuity (e.g. putting them in movieverse continuity). In fact, the Henkei! Henkei! manga series (two different series) places them in Neo-G1 continuity. I've yet to see any canonical or marketing material or statement from HasTak that states otherwise and contradicts this. If you can show me such material then I will consider reclassifying them.

Lugnut and Drift also have the Generations manga that was commissioned by TakTom. This firmly places Drift and Lugnut in Classicsverse, along with Grapple, etc.

I was never disputing this. Please re-read my comment about these characters again.

Opinion is one thing, but you're ignoring multiple canonical sources here, along with what the wishes of the average collector would be:- to know that that SeaSpray exists, and is there as a viable upgrade for G1 SeaSpray, ala Powerglide, and is intended as such.

1. The wishes of any collector is based on personal bias. After all, a lot of fans believe in FIRRIB, yet it's technically incorrect for the toyline (and majority of G1 media) - including Classicsverse (United Frumble are RIRFIB).

2. As I've said before, if I wanted to ignore other people's opinions and multiple canonical sources, then I would never have bothered making the [?] category - instead simply choosing to classify Sea Spray and Bludgeon in the [-] category (which is how I personally categorise them). As I've said before, the entire reason why the [?] category exists is to cater for differing opinions.

Swerve has been updated into the classicverse, just into a radically different form.
http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Swerve/swerve.htm

Hmmm... TFwiki classifies this toy/character as part of Universe 1.0 and not Universe 2.0 -- I'm guessing this is because of the Universe 1.0 font they used on his instruction booklet.

Ummm... I'll classify him as [?]

[griffin]

Lugnut and Drift also have the Generations manga that was commissioned by TakTom. This firmly places Drift and Lugnut in Classicsverse, along with Grapple, etc.

Try to find Drift or Lugnut in a catalogue from 1984-1991 (Gen1). They weren't released during Gen1 as toys, which is the point of this topic - toys that are "updates" of (1984-1991) Gen1 toys.
Drift is not an update of anyone. And Lugnut is just a retcon into a comic that was printed 20 years after the end of Gen1.

I personally feel that Seaspray (or Sea Spray) was meant to be an update of the Gen1 Seaspray, in both looks and name... but like the 2007 Movie store exclusive "updates" that I noted above, this (and Bludgeon) had to be shoe-horned into the Movie story universe because they had to resort to sticking it into Movie packaging.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Try to find Drift or Lugnut in a catalogue from 1984-1991 (Gen1). They weren't released during Gen1 as toys, which is the point of this topic - toys that are "updates" of (1984-1991) Gen1 toys.
Drift is not an update of anyone. And Lugnut is just a retcon into a comic that was printed 20 years after the end of Gen1.

That's where you're wrong Griff. This is pretty much a What Goki Thinks categorisation thread.

Fair 'nuff @Goki, but if you could modify your list so it covers the guessing game and post it in the Botcon mold thread that's be appreciated too.

[GoktimusPrime]

That's where you're wrong Griff. This is pretty much a What Goki Thinks categorisation thread.

Alright, let me explain this again...
If this was a true "What Goki Thinks" categorisation, it would look like this:

Current:
[?][/] Soundwave = Maybe (if you count the Hasbro reissue)

Under Goki:
[-] Soundwave = No

Current:
[?][/] Laserbeak = Maybe (if you count the Hasbro reissue)

Under Goki:
[-] Laserbeak = No

Current:
[?] Seaspray = Maybe (re: Sea Spray)

Under Goki:
[-] Seaspray = No

Current:
[?][/] Outback = Maybe (if you count RtS Fallback)

Under Goki:
Outback = No

Current:
[?] Bludgeon = Technically no, but apparently at one stage Hasbro did consider using the ROTF Bludgeon mould for Universe (it was originally intended for Unicron Trilogy) but ultimately decided to use it for ROTF

Under Goki:
[-] Bludgeon = No

The entire [?] category was created in the interest of being inclusive. Under my system it would be exclusive and completely biased toward my dogmatic adherance to how Hasbro markets the toys (that's the way I sees 'em!). But under what you and Cat are suggesting, it would swing the bias in the opposite direction... and I don't see how that's any better than what I would do if I allowed my bias to dictate classification. Unless it's "but our bias is better than yours" -- nobody's bias is better or worse than anyone else's. It's bias!

I'm not claiming that this list is completely devoid of bias - very few (if any) classification systems are completely unbiased, not even scientific classifications (are humans really a separate species from apes? Living organisms are defined as containing at least a single cell with DNA, yet a virus has no DNA - so is it alive? Didn't Pluto used to be a planet? etc.) -- I'm just trying (<--operative word here) to be as unbiased as I can, but I won't pretend that it's bias free. Any list that anyone makes is going to have their own bias in it.

But I'm least trying to be consistent within this system of classification. So again, please let me know if there is anything that you think I have classified inconsistently according to the defined parameters of classification.

Let's look at Sea Spray for example...
+ If I classify him as [+], then I'm being biased toward those who classify him as G1 and consciously ignoring canonical evidence that places him in the movieverse (even if it's "shoe horned," it's still official). <--I'm screwed.
+ If I classify him as [-] (as I would like to!), then I'm being biased toward the "shoe horned" canon that Hasbro has made, and ignoring authorial intent. <--I'm screwed.
+ If I maintain him as [?] and let people decide for themselves, then people continue to complain that I'm being biased. <--I'm screwed.

Either way - I'm screwed!!

Fair 'nuff @Goki, but if you could modify your list so it covers the guessing game and post it in the Botcon mold thread that's be appreciated too.

Feel free to copy and modify this list if you like. Just so long as you give me a 50% cut of all profits you make.

So... 50% of $0.00... hmm... <rubs.chin>

[griffin]

That's where you're wrong Griff. This is pretty much a What Goki Thinks categorisation thread.

Fair 'nuff @Goki, but if you could modify your list so it covers the guessing game and post it in the Botcon mold thread that's be appreciated too.

That's not really fair. He's the only person who's stepped up to put together a list, and you're hassling him instead of those who are complaining but couldn't be bothered doing up a list.
Since the parameters of the "update" concept are up to interpretation without any official word from Funpub on what they were meaning, he appears to be including as many options as possible... based on what most here think an "update" is meant to mean.

If you've suggested inclusions, the topic should be discussing why you might have certain figures treated as updates in your collection, not degenerating to complain about them not being included. If you think the list is that bad with its omissions or errors, post up your own complete list.

[Bartrim]

I've got to agree Griff. I applaud Gok for attempting this list. I have thought about it in the past and the headache I got just thinking about it was bad enough.

[Arcee]

That's not really fair. He's the only person who's stepped up to put together a list, and you're hassling him instead of those who are complaining but couldn't be bothered doing up a list.
Since the parameters of the "update" concept are up to interpretation without any official word from Funpub on what they were meaning, he appears to be including as many options as possible... based on what most here think an "update" is meant to mean.

If you've suggested inclusions, the topic should be discussing why you might have certain figures treated as updates in your collection, not degenerating to complain about them not being included. If you think the list is that bad with its omissions or errors, post up your own complete list.

Please don't fight...

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I'm not complaining at all, apologies if/since that's how it came across. I appreciate the effort Goki put into this, especially when I don't have the extensive knowledge he does to do something similar myself.
This...

Didn't this whole exercise start from a post trying to narrow down the options for an upcoming Botcon mold?Maybe we should be using the criteria from the hints - did the reps say it was specifically Classicsverse? ... I would have assumed Seaspray and Grapple/Grappel would have come under 'updates' for guessing game purposes.

...and the reply here...

That's why I made a separate thread so that we wouldn't derail the original thread.

gave me the impression this was a Goki Plays Aristotle thread, i.e. it was separate from the Botcon release thread.

From the brief scan of the list I've done the only change I'd make is putting Sea Spray in there as well, but as Griff says we'd need more details from Funpub to tell for sure - and the list is Goki's baby so he can put in whatever he wants. The Odieverse is a mostly repurpose-filled mishmash anyway so it's no skin off my nose who they bring out for the next Botcon set.

Again, sorry for the lack of clarity/misunderstanding. Gomen Goki!