Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

Often Misunderstood Concept: 間合い (Ma'ai)


Chinese and Japanese (and I suspect other East Asian?) martial arts traditionally visualised their 間合い as "circles" (actually domes) whereas Western martial arts view them as "boxes" (actually rectangular prisms).


The left and right fighter's territories are coloured in red and blue respectively. The yellow line represents their centre line. Here the red fighter has invaded the blue fighter's Ma'ai - he has occupied the geometric centre.

Commonly understood as merely "distance" in a fight, but that's arguably too simplistic. Ma'ai really looks at each individual's "territories" and how one moves in order to move through, capture and/or defend territory. Chapter 9 of 孫子兵法 (The Art of War) deals with the principle of Ma'ai in what it calls 「行軍篇」(the deployment and movement of troops)


Here we see two fighters launching kicks from their respective Ma'ai. While they are both attacking each other, neither is moving in to either occupy or control the other's Ma'ai. This is a situation of relative stalemate as both parties are equally able to strike at each other; neither party is asserting tactical dominance over the other (this is more of a technical fight than a tactical one).

In my recent sparring with Karateka I've found that I'm often able to gain the upper hand against my partners by simply invading their Ma'ai. I found a lot of the Karateka specialised in ranged attacks - basically launching strikes from their Ma'ai into their enemy's but rarely ever crossing into enemy territory. But once I invaded my opponent's Ma'ai then it often became difficult if not impossible for my them to attack me.


The blue Jujutsu fighter has ducked under a punch and moved in to invade the white fighter's Ma'ai right before executing a take-down. This invasive maneouvre is what allows a Jujutsuka to get their opponent off balance. This is not a stalemate, here the Jujutsuka is forcing a Checkmate.

Ma'ai can be divided into 2 planes -- the "horizontal" boundary between two fighters and the "vertical" centre line. These two planes intersect and form four boxes and as such we see how the basic concept of boxing works.


The Tai Chi fighter on the right has stepped into the Karate fighter's 間合い, represented by the red line that he has crossed over. He is finishing in a solid stance while driving his elbow straight into the Karate fighter's ribs, sending him backwards off balance. Again this tactic is intended to avoid a stalemate and increase the chances of forcing a Checkmate.

Now this is less of a technical thing that a tactical thing. Because by invading your opponent's Ma'ai you are literally starving them of available options that they can use against you. Punches and kicks suddenly become useless at extreme close range and, if I can get close enough, my opponent may have difficult standing upright if I am able to plow through their centre of mass and upend their balance (although I usually didn't go this far as the Karate dojos that I'm training at don't have mats for people to safely fall onto). I'm finding that many people have trained well in learning technical fighting but not so much in tactical fighting. In this sense martial arts suddenly adopts strategic elements and sort of becomes like a game of Chess.

[GoktimusPrime]

Hit a brick wall with my recent journey into Karate.

For context:
* As explained back in February, I joined this Karate club for the purposes of cross training. I made this abundantly clear to the head instructor when I asked to sign up and he was cool with it.
* During sparring the only restrictions imposed are for safety (fair enough)
* There are two dojo; one that's closer to me (Dojo A) and one that's farther away (Dojo B)

I've recently been told by black belts at Dojo A to cease and desist using any Tai Chi during sparring because it's against their "rules" (???). No pushing/shoving, no grabbing, no elbows etc. Ya know, all the good stuff. And in the black belts' defence, they told me that they've received complaints because I've been putting my opponents onto the floor. Not takedowns, but sometimes people fall over during fights (happens to me enough times). I'm not justifying this justification, but I can understand why they - upon receiving complaints - have asked me to adjust my fighting style. It's not a great reason; they could just explain to those complainers that this is a MARTIAL ART, but they're erring on the side of caution so while I don't agree with their actions I can see where they're coming from. But interestingly enough Sensei himself has never said this to me, only two of his most senior black belts at Dojo A. Although Sensei has recently introduced the rule of taking it easy on smaller opponents and giving them a chance to do stuff, which is fair enough from a teaching/learning POV (re: zone of proximal development, you don't learn anything from being constantly overwhelmed). But the black belts aren't on this same page, they don't want me stepping my game up even with them.

The way that people at this Dojo fight is like a video game. They step in and take pot shots but... that's kinda it. It's all ranged attacks and nobody really gets close (and thus they hate it when a close range fighter at me gets in past their comfort zone). Not sure why they'd expect a fight to be comfortable... in my Tai Chi training we expect it to be frightening (as in crap your pants scary; someone is trying to harm you or worse!). But at the end of the day, I'm just a newbie at their school - I'm a white belt. And even as someone who has openly confessed to coming to this dojo to cross-train, I'm basically a guest.

So what I've been doing now is just fighting purely defensively. I just sit back there and block or evade all incoming attacks and... it is boring. Too easy and unchallenging as I find many of these Karate attacks rely on the opponent to make a ranged attack. If I don't make any attacks then they can't really do anything. I actually copped more hits making close range attacks through things like personal errors or opponents outmanoeuvring me and getting a good punch or kick in before I can close that gap. That's what I enjoyed about sparring -- honing my close quarter skills against range fighters. My strategy was to get in close and the better Karate fighters would use their range skills to try and keep me from closing in. But sadly the people at Dojo A have no interest in fighting like this, so now all I do is just sit there and casually block all incoming attacks. Low risk. Low challenge. No learning.

In teaching/learning terms this is pitching far below learners' zone of proximal development and it isn't really teaching people how to apply their skills since the conditions are far too controlled and predictable. And application is only middle order thinking (low order thinking = memorisation, high order thinking = creativity). It's just really bad teaching and learning.

Dojo B is better though as the black and brown belts there actually relish the opportunity to pressure test their Karate against my Tai Chi -- to adapt their tactics. When I execute a successful technique, rather than banning me from doing it anymore, the Dojo B people actually ask me to do it again because they want to learn how to counter it! Thus it becomes far more of a scientific process. Repeat the attack (control) and attempt to modify their Karate to counter it (variable). Hypothesising and testing. And similarly I have to ensure that my Tai Chi tactics can work against their Karate attacks. This is the beauty of cross training; so that fighters of different styles can pressure test our techniques against each other and learn to become adaptable and versatile fighters. There's no judgement or any of that tribal rubbish about whose style is better than whose -- I don't tell them to use Tai Chi and they're not telling me to use Karate during sparring, we just use what works, and if it doesn't work then analyse and correct. What went wrong? How can we improve? Thus as learners we can grow. Dojo B is a far better learning environment but sadly because it's farther away from where I live I don't get to train there often.

The other hilarious thing is that the black belts from Dojo A told me that the "distanced pot shotting" is "pure Karate." I pointed out that traditional Karate is close range; many of their form (kata) techniques is designed for close quarter combat. And recently I asked one of the black belts - out of sheer curiosity - what the lineage of the style was. No idea. Wow, really? You've trained for decades and gotten a black belt and you insist that your form is "pure" Karate but you don't even know the lineage of your style? I asked Sensei who explained that it's a combination of Okinawan Genseiryu Karate and Taido. I've only been training at this Karate school for less than 5 months and I already know the lineage of the style just by quickly asking Sensei. Okay, I get that not everyone cares about the history of their style - but if you're going to prattle on about "stylistic purity," then come on! But I think in reality "pure" Karate just means "my" Karate and anything different from their own insular perspective is "impure." It's chest beating tribalism.

And sadly discussions about styles easily devolve into tribalism. As my Chen Tai Chi teacher once said, the important question is not "What style/art do you do?" -- the important question is, "Can you fight?" I've come to realise that it doesn't matter if you're doing a traditional or non-traditional style... I don't care if it's short or long range... striking or grappling. If it works for you then keep doing it. And that's why I enjoy good cross training because it helps me to pressure test my Tai Chi and know if it works for me against fighters of different arts. Because in real life it's highly unlikely that I'll be attacked by someone who does the exact same art and style as me. During my Tai Chi (Baji) training last night we talked about how important the first sticking movement is, especially against boxers who are trained to throw combination punches in rapid succession. And I reckon I'd be more likely to come up against a boxer on the streets than a Tai Chi or even Karate fighter.

[GoktimusPrime]

I've made a FB group called "Functional Martial Arts." We don't care what style you're training in. It doesn't matter if it's traditional or not. The only thing that matters is what works.

If it works = good
If it doesn't work = not good

[GoktimusPrime]

I haven't trained in months because the class schedule didn't align with mine, but this year it does and tonight was meant to be the first lesson of the year... but it's been postponed by a fortnight because the instructor's just returned from China and he's staying home for two weeks in quarantine even though he wasn't anywhere near Wuhan. He was in Cangzhou, which is the equivalent distance of Sydney from the Sunshine Coast.

[UltraMarginal]

A reasonable precaution.
Yesterday morning defence put out a notification to all staff. If you're returning from wuhan or a surrounding province, stay home for 14 days. By mid afternoon it was revised to returning from China.
There aren't enough facts known about this yet. How easily it spreads, how severe it can be, or how quickly a carrier shows symptoms. I think your instructor is being very mature in his approach.

[Tha_Phantom]

A reasonable precaution.
Yesterday morning defence put out a notification to all staff. If you're returning from wuhan or a surrounding province, stay home for 14 days. By mid afternoon it was revised to returning from China.
There aren't enough facts known about this yet. How easily it spreads, how severe it can be, or how quickly a carrier shows symptoms. I think your instructor is being very mature in his approach.

Agreed. The disease has spread to other parts of China and just because it may not be documented specifically in Cangzhou yet doesn't mean the instructor should be careless.

[Raider]

A reasonable precaution.
Yesterday morning defence put out a notification to all staff. If you're returning from wuhan or a surrounding province, stay home for 14 days. By mid afternoon it was revised to returning from China.
There aren't enough facts known about this yet. How easily it spreads, how severe it can be, or how quickly a carrier shows symptoms. I think your instructor is being very mature in his approach.

Very sensible indeed. My father is off to Hong Kong and Thailand for business this week. Once he gets back he is going to stay away from us for 14 days just to be safe. The travel warnings are not intended to discriminate against Chinese, it is meant to apply to anyone who goes there. As UM points out, there is just not enough known so better to be safe than sorry.

[GoktimusPrime]

This is my current backyard set up for training in isolation.



The focus pads obviously represent heads, the shield and blue guard are bodies and the red guard represent legs. I've used a bungee strap to secure the shield, and a belt hangs loosely representing an arm for grappling/hooking practice. The white gloves represent "Enemy Scrotum" and the high vis tactile yellow tape on the ground marks the centre line. My somewhat limited lawn area beyond the porch is where I do form practice, but the porch is now where I'm practising striking techniques. There is also a shovel attached to the shield with duct tape with the spade end buried in a bucket of sand to help secure/stabilise the shield (especially when it's taking hits).