G1 Animal sidekicks - Sentient, Semi-Sentient or Drones?

[BigTransformerTrev]

To me, cassettes are sentient.

I see Action Master partners as being non-sentient, and capable of possessing varying degrees of artificial intelligence, like say Artoo Detoo from Star Wars, K.I.T.T. from Knight Rider, Jarvis from the Iron Man films or David from A.I.

I think probably everyone is in agreement on the cassette thing, though it can depend on the continuity. The way Megatron treated Laserbeak in FoC was definetly as a pet rather than as a robot (I can't see him patting say Thrust and then laughing when Thrust tries to bite his finger any time soon - unless someone out there is writing a very homo-erotic fanfic ) But yeah, I would certainly consider every cassette animal to be sentient on the whole.



Interesting point about AM partners having varying degrees of artificial intelligence. Given Paulbot's point about in the original tech-specs, Sights and Jazz's turbo-board both being referred to as partners and sidekicks, it's certainly possible. A mate made an interesting point on my FB Transformatorium page - I'll quote him here:

There has been no real fiction addressing them so I take it that they are Cybertronian 'pets'. It is already established that there is Cybertronian wildlife around so that's an explanation. They are different to Ravage, Sky Lynx, etc because they are actually sentient with animalistic characteristics while the AM sidekicks are not. So yeah, AM partners are alive with a spark but not really sentient.

I quite like this explanation, of them being almost 'domesticated wild Cybertronian animals'. And it kinds works - the Decepticons using nasty animals like scorpions and alligators, and the Autobots using creatures like eagles and lions - animals associated with nobility.



I suppose it is all up for debate (hence why I started this thread ). Chances are the bloke who wrote the tech-specs was doing it in his coffee break and gave no real long term thought to it, I'm sure he/she did not expect it to be debated over two decades later Personally, I think in regards to the AM animal sidekicks I'm going to (for now) stick with my original idea that yes they are as sentient as the next bot. And though Dreamwave and TFwiki are certainly not TF gospel, right now they appear to be the most fleshed out descriptions of these characters, far more than the original tech specs (remember, in them Skywarp was rated higher in rank than Starscream and no-one takes that as gospel) and on the whole treat them like any other Transformer.

Until the animal AM partners are used far more in fiction I guess we will not be sure. Question - have any of them EVER been used in a comic book outside DW's MTMTE? The only ones I can think of are Push-Button serving drinks in DW (and we are not discussing him since he is not an animal anyway) and Wingthing turning up in a group shot, although he just got a new toy (recolured Ratbat) which is quite cool and maybe lends credence to the 'all are equal' idea.

Oh, and I always thought 'Scorponok' from the movies should have been called 'Scorpulator' - much more fitting as a partner to a bigger bot.

[GoktimusPrime]

I can't think of them ever having any canonical appearances other than in tech specs and profiles.

One issue with the domesticated wildlife theory -- according to the Action Masters' original lore, after discovering that Nucleon stripped them of their ability to transform, the Action Masters modified/developed their weapons and vehicles as transformable partners. There's really isn't any evidence to suggest that the animal AM partners were some form of domesticated Turbofox. :/ Also the TV commercial refers to some of the partners as "battle droids," which to me suggests A.I. over actual sentience.

At any rate, TFwiki states, "They display personalities of their own and are sometimes very highly skilled. However, their origin is largely unknown, as is their exact level of sentience."
So yeah... there just doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

The only ones I can think of are Push-Button serving drinks in DW (and we are not discussing him since he is not an animal anyway) and Wingthing turning up in a group shot, although he just got a new toy (recolured Ratbat) which is quite cool and maybe lends credence to the 'all are equal' idea.

Artoo Detoo served drinks aboard Jabba's barge in Return of the Jedi -- but he's still a non-sentient artificially intelligent droid. As for Wingthing, simply having an 'autonomous' Transformer body doesn't necessarily make that Transformer sentient per se, because we have had some Transformers similar to this who have been explicitly stated to be artificially intelligent non-sentients; e.g. Godbomber and Zoom-Zoom.

[BigTransformerTrev]

according to the Action Masters' original lore, after discovering that Nucleon stripped them of their ability to transform, the Action Masters modified/developed their weapons and vehicles as transformable partners.

At any rate, TFwiki states, "They display personalities of their own and are sometimes very highly skilled. However, their origin is largely unknown, as is their exact level of sentience."
So yeah... there just doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

Yeah, no definitive answer, though the arguments you and Paulbot have made have certainly made me less certain of my assertion that they are like any other bot. I do remember that bit from Action Masters original lore now that you have mentioned it and it supports your argument well.



Another friend on my FB Transformatorium page left this about the AM animal partners:

Depending on your definition of sentience, it can commonly be agreed that is the ability to think subjectively. Therefore, as the beings in question could have served their "masters" because they chose to and not because of training (in particular learned helplessness) this would be a subjective thought. Something like the view of the individual where I only obey because I am told to, or I only associate with so-and-so for shelter/food would be more objective. Hence the individual would be prone to move on as soon as a better opportunity arises (yes, I know a lot of "sentient" humans exhibit these behaviours). But as they showed loyalty to the detriment of their own well-being demonstrates sentience...or complete insanity. But what's the difference I suppose. But yeah in a nut-shell, definitely as sentient as any other being that claims to be.

Which is kinda cool and takes the psychology of the whole thing into account and is a strong argument for them being fully actualized characters in their own right. And while it may enforce the 'they are fully sentient, not domesticated pets' argument (otherwise Gatoraider would go work for Rad instead if Rad offered him more energon goodies than Krok), it does unintentionally perhaps suggest that maybe they are loyal to their own detriment, not because of a fully developed personality, but because that is their programming, although that concept relies on a very high level of AI (which undoubtedly Cybertronian science is capable of).



On a purely whimsical level and taking a break from the logical arguments, I'd like to see them show up in the IDW comics - think it would be great to see Jackpot wandering round with Sights on his shoulder like some eccentric, and Krok's gang all sitting round chatting and throwing the odd tid-bit to Gatoraider. Kinda like Tyrannitron was portrayed (off panel) in the FP comic - I thought that was suitably humorous While I think they are fully sentient, and Gok thinks they just have AI, I think the most fun thing would be if they were pets

[Bidoofdude]

With the cassette bots in the G1 cartoon, although they were pets and were sometimes used as a utility, rather than a sentient being, they still seemed to show some form of sentient behaviour, whether it be conversing with their master or other bots. Rumble and Frenzy were very much like this.

Even most of the animal cassettes showed some form of being a sentient being, such as using their own tactics (though questionably, this could be in their programming) and communicating with other cassette bots/cons. (particularly in the case of the Autobot cassettes)

In the Headmasters as well, both the Bots' and Cons' respective cassettes showed remorse for the loss of their master and joy upon their return/resurrection.

This also brings forth the notion that when Blaster and Soundwave were both (brutally) killed in The Headmasters series, their cassette minions stayed living, which contradicts other forms of drones, such as the drone for the Scientist class in FOC, which explodes upon death of the player in multiplayer. (this could be argued against, as it is a game and seperate continuities also affect the laws and physics in that particular universe.)

So, in my own opinion at least, the G1 cassettes pretty much had their own sentimentality and just happened to side themself with their master and take the form of a cassette that takes residence inside of them.

Action Masters are kind of iffy, but I honestly treat them as semi-sentient or as drones.)

[GoktimusPrime]

Ravage did speak in the G1 cartoon, although he could only do it in cassette mode and had to speak through Soundwave.

BigAngryTrev: just out of curiosity, how do you feel about other bestial partners or components for Transformers? Would you consider them to possess some level of sentience or simply as non-sentient artificially intelligent drones? Even if some of them are explicitly marketed as "drones," remember that the word 'drone' applies in nature to things like some male insects that were born from unfertilised eggs (e.g. bees, ants, wasps etc.) -- although insects aren't sentient.
So things like:
* Power Core Combiner Dinobots
* Depth Charge's shark
* BW Scorponok's Cyber-Bee
* BW Sandstorm's Cyber-Bee
* Polar Claw's bat
* Grizzly-1/Barbearian's bat
* TF Prime Laserbeak
etc.

[BigTransformerTrev]

BigAngryTrev: just out of curiosity, how do you feel about other bestial partners or components for Transformers? Would you consider them to possess some level of sentience or simply as non-sentient artificially intelligent drones? Even if some of them are explicitly marketed as "drones," remember that the word 'drone' applies in nature to things like some male insects that were born from unfertilised eggs (e.g. bees, ants, wasps etc.) -- although insects aren't sentient.
So things like:
* Power Core Combiner Dinobots
* Depth Charge's shark
* BW Scorponok's Cyber-Bee
* BW Sandstorm's Cyber-Bee
* Polar Claw's bat
* Grizzly-1/Barbearian's bat
* TF Prime Laserbeak
etc.

Well a few of those I am not familiar with but I'll answer those I am:

*PCC Dinobots (Wish I had'em!) - Na, drones
* Depth Charge's (the only Maximal I own) Shark - it's just a shark shaped gun isn't it? Not even a drone, more a tool
*Don't know the next 4
*TF Prime Laserbeak - oh how I wanted him to be sentient but it says specifically he's a drone so I have to live with it

[GoktimusPrime]

* Depth Charge's (the only Maximal I own) Shark - it's just a shark shaped gun isn't it? Not even a drone, more a tool

In the cartoon he could deploy it and it would swim independently and conduct reconnaissance - much like TF Prime Laserbeak, only aquatic. Scorponok's Cyber Bee could do the same thing, and also had a cyber-venom attack (it once infected Optimus Primal with a virus that made him extremely aggressive/violent). Having said that, the Maximals were able to hack into the Cyber Bee and use it, somewhat similar to when Wheeljack hacked Laserbeak.

Heh, all this talk of sentience makes me think of the Beast Wars episode "Transmutate" which deals with a Cybertronian who is sentient, but very mentally retarded and in possession of physically destructive capability; under such circumstances, should that being be allowed to continue living or should it be terminated for the sake of others? (i.e. does the needs to the many outweigh the needs of the individual?)

"Are we Predacons now? Do we destroy whatever does not fit our definition of perfection?!" - an outraged Silverbolt

[Sky Shadow]

Ravage has talked in both the regular IDW comics (e.g. Spotlight: Soundwave) and of course he talks in the Beast Wars ones.

[Paulbot]

Oh yeah. Just looking it up he was talking in RID too. I think it's the mind controlled appearances that are sticking out more in my memory. And when he was a dog in AHM...

[griffin]

Why can't the Actionmaster partners (beast, vehicles, weapons, backpacks, etc) be like Roller, in that they are a part of the person they were created for/from, and have the transcendental sentience from that person... as in they think/act as if they are another limb, and even feel each other's pain.