The Pros & Cons of Michael Bay - discussion topic

[Sinnertwin]

They are a technologically advanced race... I'm sure there were humane methods at their disposal to put prisoners into stasis-lock or hybernation, and store their sparks until such time that they could be re-educated or re-programmed to be non-violent.

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

And what about Optimus enslaving the Dinobots in TF4? He only "frees" them from Lockdown's captivity when he needed them, not as soon as he was free... and then instead of pleading with his "fellow knights" for their help, he starts bashing up Grimlock and holding a sword to his throat stating, "help my friends or die".

I may be wrong, but weren't the Dinobots on the ship they needed to travel across the world? Freeing them onboard may not have been the best course of action if they were

Prime does ask for their help first though "so, today you stand with us, or you stand against me."
Grimlock decided to stand against Prime and once Jungle Law was applied and Optimus Prime proved that he was the Alpha Male, Grimlock and the other Dinobots fell in line. Happens in nature every day of the week

But there's the inconsistency. It's not as if Optimus Prime had been a merciless take-no-prisoners bad-bot the whole time. The first movie showed him as being more merciful, especially in the way that he was willing to sacrifice himself over Megatron. But then in ROTF he suddenly changed to become a more cold-blooded character for no apparent reason whatsoever. It'd be different if he'd been like this from the first film, but he wasn't.

That's what we want though, isn't it? we want to see Prime develop as a character. we want to see how he feels and reacts. He's witnessed his family get torn apart, blown up, melted, betrayed by humans and we still expect him to do cartwheels?
If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

rule #1 you must die and come back to life
rule #2 you must sacrifice yourself at any given opportunity
yawn.

[Demonac]

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

Didn't they fix Bumblebee's voice at the end of the first movie?
Or did audiences think him being a robot Lassie was too cute, so it was retconned?

[drifand]

Didn't they fix Bumblebee's voice at the end of the first movie?
Or did audiences think him being a robot Lassie was too cute, so it was retconned?

nope thats how bad this movie line is.

[Yongeltron]

If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

rule #1 you must die and come back to life
rule #2 you must sacrifice yourself at any given opportunity
yawn. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Agreed. I can understand nostalgia, but what's the point of telling exactly the same story with exactly the same characters again and again for decades on end? Are the Autobots, Decepticons and their endless war really the towering literary and conceptual achievements that would justify such treatment? Even Luke and his pals only blew up the Death Star twice.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.



I may be wrong, but weren't the Dinobots on the ship they needed to travel across the world? Freeing them onboard may not have been the best course of action if they were

Prime does ask for their help first though "so, today you stand with us, or you stand against me."
Grimlock decided to stand against Prime and once Jungle Law was applied and Optimus Prime proved that he was the Alpha Male, Grimlock and the other Dinobots fell in line. Happens in nature every day of the week




That's what we want though, isn't it? we want to see Prime develop as a character. we want to see how he feels and reacts. He's witnessed his family get torn apart, blown up, melted, betrayed by humans and we still expect him to do cartwheels?
If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

rule #1 you must die and come back to life
rule #2 you must sacrifice yourself at any given opportunity
yawn.

Agreed. I can understand nostalgia, but what's the point of telling exactly the same story with exactly the same characters again and again for decades on end? Are the Autobots, Decepticons and their endless war really the towering literary and conceptual achievements that would justify such treatment? Even Luke and his pals only blew up the Death Star twice.

I agree with all of the above

[drifand]

And I don't.

If you are tired of Transformers maybe you should stop everything altogether.

Who is going to complain about combiner wars robots that combined for 30 years? Exactly? What? Have Transformers but dont transform as a new point of direction? Ur no thanks.

Hell yeah, I want to see prime die again.
Bring on powermaster optimus. In fact I want to see Bay run out of options and finally throw in the towel, so bring it on. the faster he finishes this line, the better. I know he does a half arse job in the direction it has gone. Since TF 3 its been a great down slide.

Episode 5 should just solely focus on how bumble bee gets his voice back. < can't see the point he can get a new car body everytime but can't fix his voice.

This story line is sadly on a downhill slide, so only explosions and more Autobots dying is the way to go. Yeah comes to a point where humans are the decepticons and probably one where autobots have to work hand in hand with decepticons for their survival.

[BigTransformerTrev]

If you are tired of Transformers maybe you should stop everything altogether.

.

Don't talk stupid crap like that. Just because people enjoy new storylines and takes on characters doesn't mean they are tired of Transformers. And saying: 'If you are tired of Transformers maybe you should stop everything altogether' is like saying if a person is tired of this hobby they should just give up on life.

Have an opposing opinion - that's fine - makes for healthy discussion. But don't spout idiotic one liners like that. It proves no point and makes you look rude and adversarial.

[drifand]

Its my opinion of it, Transformers is what it is, you don't like it thats your take on it. Its been like this for 30 years. If you want I make it three liners and so on. I felt Bay had failed on many levels after the first two movies.

Saying that its like 5th episode of TF movie and bumble bee still kick ass but no voice.

I am standing as it is, if you feel that 30 years was bunch of looser storyline then perhaps you are not watching the Transformers as it is.

You are free to enjoy the movie line as you please. I don't have to agree with everyone here, quite simple.

The optimus I know is definately not of this version.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I am standing as it is, if you feel that 30 years was bunch of looser storyline then perhaps you are not watching the Transformers as it is.

.

Again - you are making confronting and adversarial statements. Who said anything about what's come before being loser storylines? People CAN enjoy what has come before and yet still want to see new storylines and different takes on existing characters. I quite liked Wheeljack from TFPrime. A former Wrecker who is battle-hungry and in your face. Does this mean I hated G1 Wheeljack? Of course not! I love the affable mad scientist! In fact I like the G1 version better but I still enjoyed this take on him.

Like I've said in other threads, the Movieverse Optimus is certainly in no way how I would have written and portrayed the character, but it doesn't stop me enjoying this different take on him where he is becoming hardened from all the struggles they have been through on earth such as being betrayed by his mentor, being betrayed by the humans, watching his friends die, dying himself etc etc.

You need to calm down and make rational arguments mate - not make confronting statements that make it sound like you are casting judgements on others because of their proclivities - DONT say thing like 'you are not watching Transformers as it is' - it's just rude.

[griffin]

I kinda hate to respond to this as it makes me look like a Bay-hater, but the plot and character contradictions is the one element I have a problem with in his four TFs movies.
I like to watch the movies, but know that I would have loved them more if the contradictions and inconsistencies weren't there.

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

But they did fix his voicebox... but Bay preferred the mute bot element of talking through his radio. So it was just one of the many retcons or contradictions in his four movies.

I may be wrong, but weren't the Dinobots on the ship they needed to travel across the world? Freeing them onboard may not have been the best course of action if they were

That's the main problem I was trying to point out with Bay's interpretation of the Dinobots.
Just because they had beast modes it doesn't mean that they have the minds of animals. And just because Michael Bay wanted an extra fight scene at the end of the movie and for the Trailers (instead of a quick liberation of the Dinobots who then volunteer to charge into battle with their fellow Autobots), it doesn't mean that their sentience has to be sacrificed to do that. (I know that the Movie and promos & Trailers needed a physical fight with Grimlock as he was face of this fourth movie, and since they only show up right at the end of the movie it prevented someone else like Galvatron being able to have time to do it... but this forced scene in the movie goes against what Optimus and the Dinobots should have been like.)
Optimus even referred to them as his fellow knights, which means they were his equals, so now if they appear in a later Movie as proper sentient Autobots, it will contradict their appearance in the fourth movie.
They should have been portrayed like the G1 comic Dinobots (regular Autobots) based on who Optimus said they were, not the G1 cartoon Dinobots (peanut brained animals who were built and provided comedic relief to the episodes they were in). They didn't even get any lines to at least give us an idea that they were anything more than pets.
It was just another of Bay's lazy 2-dimensional stereotypes... like his racial stereotypes of many of his other characters (like Skids, Mudflap, Shane, Leo, most of the Asians in TF4, Figueroa, Drift, etc, etc, etc).

Prime does ask for their help first though "so, today you stand with us, or you stand against me."
Grimlock decided to stand against Prime and once Jungle Law was applied and Optimus Prime proved that he was the Alpha Male, Grimlock and the other Dinobots fell in line. Happens in nature every day of the week

That would only make sense if they were just pets or animals like the Steeljaws on Lockdowns ship. These were supposed to be Autobot Knights who were equal to Optimus Prime... and yet it was deemed more important for Bay's action movie to have Optimus fight and enslav his equals to do his bidding, just to get an extra scene of fighting and explosions crammed into the movie. Why couldn't it have just been a charge of the heroes with the Dinobots being willing comrades to their fellow Autobots... and how does the ground explode when Grimlock's weapon hits it?
It's like Bay tries to find a way to include explosions in every scene, even if it means re-writing the plot or characters to achieve it.

If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

Cliched is when you have all these blockbuster action movies being required to have the same plot concepts just to appease the investors and pre-release movie reviewers...
- Someone important that isn't evil must die or be believed to be dead (the tragic element).
- The hero(es) must become targets or hunted as if they are the villains (to get sympathy from the audience to hope they regain their hero status).
- The main hero must do something that creates doubt or mistrust by others and the main villain needs to show themselves as justified in their actions (to have shades of grey to every character, so that there isn't any black or white heroes and villains).
- There must be a romance, but is difficult for the guy to get the girl.
- Something needs to be found.
- The villains should be defeated, but not entirely if there is potential for a sequel.

It would be less cliched if modern action movies could actually avoid conforming to those requirements just to appease the reviewers and critics that could make or break them.


That's probably the most fun I've had dissecting the Transformers movies...