Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Transformers Stealth Force -- should they count for UCM? I just see if a general consensus can be agreed upon here before resorting to making another poll.
My opinion: no. They're more like merchandise than what I consider to be proper Transformer action figures.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
what was the ruling on RPM's? i see these in the same classification
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
The RPMs don't count because they're classified under Article 17 which states that only transforming movie toys count and non-transforming movie toys don't. Stealth Force do technically transform though... but they don't transform into robots. They're just vehicles with attack modes.
But I suppose the same could be said about Combiner Class Devastator who is a set of vehicles that transform into body parts. I don't think we ever reached a consensus for Combiner Class Devastator. Perhaps it may be time to have a poll about movie toys that do transform but don't have robot modes... but I'd rather avoid doing a poll if possible.
Lemme put it this way, does anyone object if we don't count the Combiner Class Constructicons and Stealth Force TFs individually? If a sufficient number of people object on this thread then I'll make a poll -- if not then I say they don't count.
Rank 10 - Admin
Didn't BW Mutant Beasts counted? Same thing - 2 modes, no robot mode.
And just to be difficult... I think the polls were flawed because they allowed people to rule out various 'Transformers Toys' from a Transformers Toy counting method.
Transformers are toys, and it's a Transformers Toy count... so if it is recognised as a 'Toy' and classified as legally branded as a 'Transformers' (toy) product, all those 'non convertable' toys and 'non-robot' toys shouldn't have been polled to begin with.
It's a Toy collection, so just count *all* the toys, and don't ask collectors to subjectively decide on things that are undisputably toys... because their demographic's focus is on the (older) action-figure side of collecting, making voting flawed.
Polling non-collectors would be more objective, because they can more accurately identify a 'toy', without thinking about how it makes them look for accepting 'junior' toys, or worrying about other people having a bigger collection based on what each restrict themselves to collecting. Ask a non-collector, 'is this a toy', and if they say yes, then it counts (if it is a Transformers product).
The only thing that should be polled, if required, is what constitutes 'complete' when it comes to things like multi-packs (like Reflector or Armada toys packed with a Minicon - how far do you break up a set before one becomes 'incomplete' in the collection listing). A good test is how would you list it for sale/review, and list whatever is left when that figure is removed - if any component can't be classed as 'complete', then something can't be separated from it as a separate 'Toy' (would you buy or review Armada Optimus without Sparkplug... Sparkplug may look like it's a separate toy, but if it makes Optimus incomplete without it, it would need to remain a componant of the larger figure - like Cityformers with their smaller robots).
Objectively, everything that is legally released as a Transformers toy, in a toy collection, should count, no matter what it is or how many they have.
To test that, RPMs MiniVehicles and Speed Stars Stealth Force - are they Transformers products? Yes. Are they Toys? Yes.
I count how many toys I have in my Transformers collection... so they count.
If the people polled are all more committed to the toys aimed at the older demographic, and vote against these 'toys', then the poll result is biased and contradicts the purpose of a toy collection count.
It's like when people are polled in public about things... results are often flawed based on how the poll is conducted (using phones or internet rules out certain demographics from participating), or where it is conducted (socio-economic differences, politically sensative areas, ethnic groupings), or even who is asked (gender, religion)... can all alter a poll result.
In the case of the UCM, only serious collectors were polled about what counts to them as a Transformers toy, instead of asking what counts as a toy in general.
If you can't avoid a biased demographic, then an objective question needs to be asked to get an objective response. It would have then avoided the 'need' to poll a majority of the Articles listed in the first posting.
Unfortunately, for the purpose of comparing new data to past data, any re-definition of a collection count would mean starting all over again with the comparative data.
(then again, if consistancy of data is an issue as addressed on the first page of this topic, then the other variable should be eliminated - the participants... only those people involved in a previous count, can and must all be involved in future counts, or else the total results and averages of such a small, changing sample of people, are gonna throw out the integrity of the results anyway)
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
To me, the Mutant Beasts have two definitive modes - i.e. two alt modes. The Combiner Class Constructicons and Stealth Force TFs only have one "definitive" mode and transform into an 'intermediate' mode (i.e. body part, attack mode). I personally don't really consider intermediate modes as being a proper mode... but this is just my opinion.
You're looking at a quantitative count whereas I believe the UCM looks more at a qualitative count. There are pros and cons to either method of counting - your quantitative way is simpler and would probably yield more consistent results... however others might feel it to be "cheap" because people could boost their collection counts with what they perceive as merchandise rather than action figures like PVCs, statues, balls, bop bags, pinball games etc.
Anyway, this is all a moot point since, as you said...
As for...
The project is a census to keep track of collectors' collection sizes and ultimately answer the question of "How big is the average collection?"
Anyway, all this really should have been debated at the outset of this project in 2005-06 when we were deciding the rules of the project. The ship's pretty much sailed now, unless someone wants to start a new project and run with that.
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Getting back to the question at hand... I take it you're voicing an objection against not counting the Combiner Class Constructicons and Stealth Forcers then.
Does anyone else concur?
Rank 10 - Admin
None of those are 'toys', which was the point of what I was saying... if you are counting toys for a 'Transformers Count', polls on those sort of things (and most of the Articles) would have been unnecessary. It just over-complicated a process that could have been a lot simpler (and more objective) from the outset.
And personal bias doesn't boost collections, it prohibits others from counting *toys* they have in their collection. I have a room full of toys, but according to what other people have voted, a large number aren't toys. I support a universal method for statistical purposes (like this project), but that just bugs me.
Which was the point of the 'devils advocate' bit on how accurate is 'an average' if the sample polled is so different each time? (I'm not saying a poll shouldn't be taken - just that people participating or compiling shouldn't get too worked up over its accuracy or parameters) It's like surveying people about what their religion is, and each time it involves different people... statistically it would appear that the demographic has changed, but those people in the first survey may not have changed their religion at all...
As per my posting... if they are toys, and they are legit Transformers (r), they count. As per the existing UCM, you may have to take a poll to see what the 'collectors' think.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
I think we're now delving into subjective definitions of what counts as a "toy". The technical definition of "toy" can be quite broad, such as "...any object that can be used for play". Perhaps it would be better to replace the word "toy" with "action figure," which is defined as "a posable character figurine". The term 'action figure' would, by definition, discount toys like balls, PVC figurines etc. But you may still run into problems here because a lot of Transformer PVC figurines actually do have some posability and some collectors may argue that the term action figure would only exclude absolutely non-posable statues (thus PVCs and even Mighty Muggs could still arguably be counted as action figures).
That's why I'm hesitant in making more polls and creating new articles. Even when new polls are made, whenever possible I try to update existing articles rather than create new ones.
Devil's advocate: your personal bias would disclude people from counting "toys" like balls and bop bags etc.
Fair enough, but as you know it's too late to really change anything for this project now.
Rank 1 - New or Inactive
I object to combiner class devestator (ROTF) being removed from the UCM.
As I see it Devestator while lacking individual modes does transform from multiple vehicles into a robot. While lacking the amount of vehicles needed to make him movie accurate as a toy he does reflect what the movie portrayed: one singular personality.
As for the rest, when i count my collection for personal track i tend to count any that have their own individual personality or bio ie i also include targetmasters etc as they have their own bio in western release.
However a good point was raised as what makes an item complete. If an armada line figure didn't have it's minicon i wouldn't count it as complete.
Thats just what i think anyway.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
i personaly do not care how many i have and i dont really care about playing a measuring stick game with how many toys i have, thats why i stick with lots and lots when people ask me.... if you cant enjoy looking at my collection without wanting to know how many i have to compare to other collections then i really dont want you to know.. just enjoy the perve for what it is.
so Sharkys collection count = Lots and Lots
and thats the bottom line.................
Rank 1 - New or Inactive
It's not that i like comparing my collection to others. i just like to know how many i have.
It's more i don't like some being classed and not others. Though i can see everyone has a different point of view on this as some will class rpm's and i don't but i do class 3" titanium and targetmasters etc
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