The Doctor Who thread

[GoktimusPrime]

I think it's fair to assume that there may be spoilers about the new ep/season from here on. Spoilers ahead...



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This:

Non-Caucasian looking Kaleds! I personally think that it's good to try and introduce more ethnic diversity into the show, especially among alien humanoids. We've already seen attempts at introducing more diversity into other humanoid aliens, such as Time Lords. Besides, it don't matter if your black or white, cos in the end they all look like cycloptic squids!

Coincidentally I was actually re-watching The Genesis of the Daleks just last week, so the memories of that episode are still fresh in my mind; revisiting the dilemma that the Fourth Doctor faced with detonating the incubation chamber and killing the Dalek race at the moment of the creation. But here's the thing, when the Doctor was sent to Skaro to intervene with the Dalek's creation, he was actually given several options:
* Avert their creation
* Alter their nature (i.e. make them less aggressive)
* Discover an inherent weakness
The Doctor initially tried to alter their nature, asking Davros not to strip the Daleks of their morality (as did some other sympathetic Kaleds, who attempted a coup that ultimately failed). He couldn't discover any inherent weakness, so the only option he had left was to commit genocide, but he only managed to trap the Daleks for a thousand years.

So here's the thing... the Twelfth Doctor has inadvertently travelled back to Skaro and discovered Davros as a boy. Rather than killing him, why doesn't he just rescue Davros and mentor the boy? Try to help Davros grow into a better man --- a man who doesn't believe that morality and compassion are weaknesses, and thus attempt to pass these "strengths" onto the Daleks. If the Doctor can guide Davros into becoming a compassionate man, then there's a fair chance that the Daleks would become compassionate beings. Save Clara, save the freakin' future! The Doctor would finally complete the mission that the Time Lords assigned to him back in The Genesis of the Daleks.

P.S.: It would be similar to what the Doctor tried to do with Kazran Sardick, although Sardick did still become the mean person that the Doctor was trying to change. But the Doctor could at least try to change Davros, and if that fails, then kill him. Spending decades becoming Davros' confidant would allow the Doctor to be trusted by him and get close, which would make it easier to assassinate him if changing Davros' nature would appear to be impossible.

[griffin]

I'm really starting to hate how no one dies in Doctor Who, unless they are a friend of the Doctor.

If they can't afford to lose two of his biggest villains, then don't kill them off... again and again and again.
And they don't even bother to try to explain it anymore. At least in the original series, they would explain a "return after death", even if it was sometimes a little far-fetched. But at least they tried and not just have dead people show up without a reason.

[liegeprime]

P.S.: It would be similar to what the Doctor tried to do with Kazran Sardick, although Sardick did still become the mean person that the Doctor was trying to change. But the Doctor could at least try to change Davros, and if that fails, then kill him. Spending decades becoming Davros' confidant would allow the Doctor to be trusted by him and get close, which would make it easier to assassinate him if changing Davros' nature would appear to be impossible.

or just kill the boy rather than spend years wasting it on the boy influencing him to morality and compassion and wotnot only to find, it doesn't work.... he's already an evil person presently. So, presented with the chance, just off the fellow in one quick swoop. Easier, faster mission accomplished.

Also I don't think trapping the Daleks can count as genocide... they didn't die, they're just misplaced somewhere.... he should've sent the entire race in the heart of a star, then that's genocide and that would've ended their menace. mission accomplished again, the Doctor for all his knowledge and power is indeed such a weak and flawed creature heheheh.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I'm really starting to hate how no one dies in Doctor Who, unless they are a friend of the Doctor.

If they can't afford to lose two of his biggest villains, then don't kill them off... again and again and again.
And they don't even bother to try to explain it anymore. At least in the original series, they would explain a "return after death", even if it was sometimes a little far-fetched. But at least they tried and not just have dead people show up without a reason.

Errr.... I'm not sure we as TF nuts can really rag on the Dr Who show for that - most big TF villains have died and come back that many times the gateway to the afterlife might as well be a revolving door

[GoktimusPrime]

or just kill the boy rather than spend years wasting it on the boy influencing him to morality and compassion and wotnot only to find, it doesn't work.... he's already an evil person presently. So, presented with the chance, just off the fellow in one quick swoop. Easier, faster mission accomplished.

Yes, but that's not how the Doctor thinks. The Doctor is a similar character to Optimus Prime -- they are altruists, and the ends can never justify the means. They are both incredible optimists, and as Davros correctly pointed out, compassion is the Doctor's greatest indulgence. The Doctor had the chance to kill off the Daleks at the moment of their creation, but he really did not want to do this. One of the most powerful moments in The Genesis of the Daleks was seeing the Fourth Doctor holding the two wires in his hand and having a moral conflict over whether or not he should detonate the Dalek incubation chamber, killing off a yet-innocent race before their birth. When his Kaled allies came and told the Doctor that Davros had agreed to negotiate, the Doctor gladly dropped the wires and ran off. The Doctor only went back to detonate the explosives when the negotiations failed.

Also I don't think trapping the Daleks can count as genocide... they didn't die, they're just misplaced somewhere.... he should've sent the entire race in the heart of a star, then that's genocide and that would've ended their menace. mission accomplished again,

The Doctor didn't have his Tardis with him. The Time Lords sent him and his companions to Skaro to avert or alter the genesis of the Daleks. He was given a Time Ring as his only means of escaping Skaro after completing his mission.

the Doctor for all his knowledge and power is indeed such a weak and flawed creature heheheh.

This is a similar trait that he shares with Optimus Prime. As Optimus Prime's G1 TFU profile states, he would be a more efficient military commander if he weren't so compassionate, but then he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime. Look at what Michael Bay did to Optimus Prime in the live action TF sequels (esp. ROTF and AOE). Optimus Prime became far more ruthless and a lot of fans (and even Peter Cullen) responded unfavourably. It's what separates heroes from villains.

Padmé Amidala: "To be angry is to be human."
Anakin Skywalker: "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."
(Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones)

But this is what makes these characters heroic. Without the compassion, then what would stop them from being villains? The Doctor became morally lost after the Time War when he regenerated into the Ninth Doctor, but it was Rose Tyler who helped him find his way and regain his sense of compassion.

And it was in this moment that a Dalek made the Doctor step back and take a good hard look at what he had allowed himself to become...
Ninth Doctor: "The Daleks have failed! Why don't you finish the job, and make the Daleks extinct? Rid the universe of your filth! Why don't you just die?"
Dalek: "You would make a good Dalek."
(Doctor Who: Dalek)

The Doctor isn't a soldier. He gave himself the name of the Doctor because he wanted to help people. And when he did become a combatant as the War Doctor, that version of himself renounced the identity of being the Doctor and became loathed and emotionally buried by the Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors until his redemption in The Day of the Doctor. The Doctor normally prides himself on being a non-aggressive person. He was disappointed when Wilfred Mott offered him his gun, and even struggled to shoot either the Master or Rassilon, even to save all of creation.

Rose Tyler: "Doctor, they've got guns!"
Tenth Doctor: "And I haven't. Which makes me the better person, don't you think? They can shoot me dead, but the moral high-ground is mine."
(Doctor Who: Army of Ghosts)

So it's not a question of whether or not it's a 'logical' decision, but whether or not it's in-character for the Doctor.

[griffin]

Errr.... I'm not sure we as TF nuts can really rag on the Dr Who show for that - most big TF villains have died and come back that many times the gateway to the afterlife might as well be a revolving door

Referring to Movie Megatron and pretty much every Optimus... doesn't it suck when it is made to look like they are gone for emotional effect, and then just brought back because of who they are?

But it's not the dying that bothers me so much, it's the resurrections without justification or plausibility.
In Transformers, yes there are returns, but robotic life can be given a less organic and more infinite existence... after all, they can be built and come to life, and have been alive for millions of years. Plus, the concept of the Matrix and Allspark were created by writers just for that very plot element of resurrections - the "mystical unknown ancient artefact" that creates life but no science can explain it.

In Doctor Who, how many times has the Master actually died (beyond the ability to regenerate), or Davros, and then just magically popped up again.
Last nights episode, it was even scripted for one to say light-heartedly, "yes I died but I'm back again", as if it really is just a big joke now.
It's the double-standards the show now has with who dies and who can never die but we'll still make it look like they die.
And ever since Steven Moffat took over from Russell T Davies, he's been messing up a number of things that were previously reliable/consistent elements, like the number of Doctors (having Peter Capaldi be the 13th doctor in the Anniversary episode, but in the very next episode he is first of his next 12 regenerations which would have been written before the Anniversary episode was filmed), and the whole Gender element of Timelords (it was a fixed element before Moffat took over, just look at the Doctor always being male after 12-ish regenerations - if it wasn't fixed he should have statistically been female for half of his regenerations, or at least half of the ones he was unconscious while regenerating so that there wasn't a claim of him choosing to stay male - and if it was normal for them to change genders all the time, then why would he choose to stay male).
Can... of... worms. Arrrgh...
Moffat should have kept the status quo on those foundation elements, and not generated inconsistencies for the amusement of one story or plot device, that will bite him in the ass later. (like Romana changing appearances like outfits before settling on her second form - yes, amusing, but now that and the Morbius episode were now forever points of contention in the argument of how many regenerations can Timelords really have)

I've actually watched (or read the book to) every Doctor Who episode ever made, so I'm a little invested in it, and am entitled to have a little selfish rant...

[BigTransformerTrev]

Referring to Movie Megatron and pretty much every Optimus... doesn't it suck when it is made to look like they are gone for emotional effect, and then just brought back because of who they are?

But it's not the dying that bothers me so much, it's the resurrections without justification or plausibility.
In Transformers, yes there are returns, but robotic life can be given a less organic and more infinite existence... after all, they can be built and come to life, and have been alive for millions of years. Plus, the concept of the Matrix and Allspark were created by writers just for that very plot element of resurrections - the "mystical unknown ancient artefact" that creates life but no science can explain it.

In Doctor Who, how many times has the Master actually died (beyond the ability to regenerate), or Davros, and then just magically popped up again.
Last nights episode, it was even scripted for one to say light-heartedly, "yes I died but I'm back again", as if it really is just a big joke now.
It's the double-standards the show now has with who dies and who can never die but we'll still make it look like they die.
And ever since Steven Moffat took over from Russell T Davies, he's been messing up a number of things that were previously reliable/consistent elements, like the number of Doctors (having Peter Capaldi be the 13th doctor in the Anniversary episode, but in the very next episode he is first of his next 12 regenerations which would have been written before the Anniversary episode was filmed), and the whole Gender element of Timelords (it was a fixed element before Moffat took over, just look at the Doctor always being male after 12-ish regenerations - if it wasn't fixed he should have statistically been female for half of his regenerations, or at least half of the ones he was unconscious while regenerating so that there wasn't a claim of him choosing to stay male - and if it was normal for them to change genders all the time, then why would he choose to stay male).
Can... of... worms. Arrrgh...
Moffat should have kept the status quo on those foundation elements, and not generated inconsistencies for the amusement of one story or plot device, that will bite him in the ass later. (like Romana changing appearances like outfits before settling on her second form - yes, amusing, but now that and the Morbius episode were now forever points of contention in the argument of how many regenerations can Timelords really have)

I've actually watched (or read the book to) every Doctor Who episode ever made, so I'm a little invested in it, and am entitled to have a little selfish rant...

I like Starscreams line in the G2 comic 'All 'death' does is make us a littler meaner and a little crankier'.

In Dr Who's case it just keeps making him wackier and thinner to the point he is in the Middle Ages, riding a tank while playing an electric guitar

[Paulbot]

In regards to the "foundation elements", the "previously reliable/consistent elements, like the number of Doctors " how "foundation" are they really? How often did it actually come up in Classic Who vs just not being contradicted. Wasn't it something that didn't turn up for years into the series when some writer made it up. And now another writer made something else up.

There's a fundamental problem that any long running franchise seems to run into - the fans that don't want change, that want things to always stay the way they were. They want their hero to keep fighting the same villains - as was touched on before. Most shows (or comics too) would be better off with a fixed end point. Dragging them out just leads to these problems where stories can't reach end points and instead the characters have to keep acting out the same stories over and over. And in that environment you can't say "this is a set thing" because for the sake of keeping the show rolling nothing can be "set".

It'd be great to see a series of Doctor Who that didn't feature at all, in any way, a previously established alien race or character except the Doctor. No Daleks, Cybermen, UNIT, Master, Angels, Sontarans, Ice Warriors, Autons, etc etc. But how likely is that?

Transformers is just as bad as this. Even though they keep introducing new continuities, the same things (characters, events) keep getting retread over and over. Oh the new cartoon has Optimus Prime fighting Megatron? Yawn. The MTMTE series is doing something really interesting with Megatron, but if sales drop it could all be thrown out and we'll have "All Hail Megatron 2" staring the 80s cartoon Megatron again.


Anyway

This episode.

I enjoyed the episode watching it for the most part, but it left a sour taste in my mouth because the rules aren't clear anymore and I feel that a show like this should have pretty clear rules on time travel. A couple of characters died - but in a way that's screaming out for a time gets rewritten reset button, but if so, then what exactly are the time travel rules anymore? If you can pop back in time and undo deaths how/why should any character ever die ever again?

Surely wiping out the creator of the Daleks and removing them from history would be the biggest bomb to all of time and space. Something that would pretty much undo every single episode of New Who if not everything but Unearthly Child? If the Doctor can even try it now, how come no Time Lord tried this during the Time War? Surely they would have tried if they could? I guess all that Time War stuff no longer applies.

And if the Doctor has a will that goes to the Master when he's about to die, um, what about how they spent far too long with the 11th Doctor "going to die" at Trenzalore and it never came up, once?

Anyway, I'll wait to see part two and see what happens, but I want to see new stuff not, oh the Doctor's run off because he doesn't want to die, again.

[SMHFConvoy]

I don't understand why the season opener has to be in 2 parts? There wasn't enough good or solid story to warrant a 2nd part so much filler. So much useless filler.

[GoktimusPrime]

There's a fundamental problem that any long running franchise seems to run into - the fans that don't want change, that want things to always stay the way they were. They want their hero to keep fighting the same villains - as was touched on before. Most shows (or comics too) would be better off with a fixed end point. Dragging them out just leads to these problems where stories can't reach end points and instead the characters have to keep acting out the same stories over and over. And in that environment you can't say "this is a set thing" because for the sake of keeping the show rolling nothing can be "set".

It'd be great to see a series of Doctor Who that didn't feature at all, in any way, a previously established alien race or character except the Doctor. No Daleks, Cybermen, UNIT, Master, Angels, Sontarans, Ice Warriors, Autons, etc etc. But how likely is that?

Transformers is just as bad as this. Even though they keep introducing new continuities, the same things (characters, events) keep getting retread over and over. Oh the new cartoon has Optimus Prime fighting Megatron? Yawn. The MTMTE series is doing something really interesting with Megatron, but if sales drop it could all be thrown out and we'll have "All Hail Megatron 2" staring the 80s cartoon Megatron again.

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But at least most other stories usually try to present some reason for why a character's returned, no matter how cheesy. The Mistress' return without rhyme nor reason just feels lazy. You might as well do something like this...