MISB Question

[GoktimusPrime]

Just out of curiosity, why is this an issue?

[DaptoDog]

Just out of curiosity, why is this an issue?

Double taping of the box clamshell may imply that the figure is not brand new. This could upset a MISB collector (eg Meister as he stated in his opening post) since they can no longer claim it is MISB and as such would expect it to sell for less than if it was single taped. It could also annoy those looking to open it since they may take that as a sign that it is second hand.

[GoktimusPrime]

Is the RRP for double-taped figures less than that for single-taped figures?
Also, if a person is the first to purchase and own a toy from a retail source, then it's not second hand, is it? So long as a person isn't selling a toy for less than what they purchased it for then they can't be making a loss. And if you are the first to own the toy after initial retail purchase the it's a first-hand purchase.

Not meaning to sound facetious, just trying to understand this. I do understand the desire to not want to pay full price for something that isn't brand new though. I agree that any toy that isn't MISB isn't worth full quid, and this is something that I found disagreeable about the MPMs sold at Zing! stores here. But in this case the toys that I saw in store didn't just have their boxes opened, they were handled and transformed by staff for display purposes. They were essentially selling ex display items, which I think ought to be sold for cheaper. Hence skipping those toys was easy peasy for me.

Do double taped toys stand a better chance of not having both tapes naturally run out of stick in time? Because in 1998 I got a second Transmetal Optimus Primal -- from the USA (and was a slightly different variant than the one we had released here). But a few years ago one of the pieces of sticky tape that kept the toy sealed just naturally fell off, so technically my toy isn't MISB despite the fact that I have never opened this toy. Even after the tape fell off I didn't open the box to peek inside; it's still unopened. But I suppose without that piece of tape there's no way that I could absolutely prove it. But still... if I wanted to sell this toy for the equivalent price of a Voyager Class figure today (say around $50), would I be able to sell it for such or would people insist on paying less because that bit of sticky tape came off?

I suppose if this sort of thing bothers a buyer then it might be better to source toys from sellers that indicate if a toy is double taped or not (e.g. Mandarake).

[KELPIE]

In fact I've read that someone was able to get an AFA grading on a double taped MP so hopefully that's of some comfort.

AFA have really lowered their requirements in what they consider MISB. It's very frustrating really.

Is the RRP for double-taped figures less than that for single-taped figures?

You need to stop thinking about it in terms of RRP. Yes some purchase for flipping purposes however there are a lot who don't. Remember we're collectors.

Also, if a person is the first to purchase and own a toy from a retail source, then it's not second hand, is it? So long as a person isn't selling a toy for less than what they purchased it for then they can't be making a loss. And if you are the first to own the toy after initial retail purchase the it's a first-hand purchase.

There is no way of telling now is there? It could have been a returned product for all the customer knows.

Also, if you take pride in having a MISB collection, it's akin to having a loose collection with a KO Mirage, he looks the same, no one really knows it's not unless you investigate closely, so why does it matter (remember we aren't talking about any financial implications here)?

It matters because the collector knows and their collection feels incomplete.

Do double taped toys stand a better chance of not having both tapes naturally run out of stick in time? Because in 1998 I got a second Transmetal Optimus Primal -- from the USA (and was a slightly different variant than the one we had released here). But a few years ago one of the pieces of sticky tape that kept the toy sealed just naturally fell off, so technically my toy isn't MISB despite the fact that I have never opened this toy. Even after the tape fell off I didn't open the box to peek inside; it's still unopened. But I suppose without that piece of tape there's no way that I could absolutely prove it. But still... if I wanted to sell this toy for the equivalent price of a Voyager Class figure today (say around $50), would I be able to sell it for such or would people insist on paying less because that bit of sticky tape came off?

Double tape does not guarantee that it will hold better.

As for your example, it will depend entirely on the collector. some will look past it and purchase, others, like myself wouldn't buy it no matter how much you're asking for it. It simply isn't an MISB any more, the "S" standing for Sealed, not closed after all.

Also correct. There is no way for you to prove it. If you had the item AFA'd prior to the tape popping, then you'd probably have a better chance.

Hope this helps.

[GoktimusPrime]

Getting a toy directly from a retailer - i.e. non-second hand sale, would guarantee that the toy isn't second hand. If it has been opened then it would have been done so by the manufacturer, not the retailer or another customer. But it's still effectively sealed; it's just that for some reason the toy has been resealed, but it was done at the point of manufacture. Remember that none of us will be the first person to touch the toy as the toy has been touched by many hands during assembly and packaging anyway.

But I suppose if single tape really matters that much, then there must be other ways around it. If I were fussed about this I would find a friend who's not a sealed collector and make a prior arrangement each time we order the same toy (but preferably not order from the same source) to swap the toy should mine be double taped and my friend's be not double taped. And if we both have double-taped toys then just hold onto the the double-taped one but put out a "Want To Trade" notice to fans looking for anyone with a single-taped toy to swap. Now it would be really important that I would pre-order these toys and get them as soon as possible, because if I do need to trade it then I need to basically alert other collectors before they go and open their toys. Because for a loose collector we wouldn't give a hoot either way.

For example, I'm going to pre-order MP Hound ASAP. Now let's say a MISB collector insists on having theirs single taped. That person might pre-order the toy and pay for express shipping, and if it arrives double taped, I might agree to swap mine with theirs if mine arrives single taped. This agreement would need to be made ASAP because I'm gonna be cracking Hound open the moment it arrives! But if I have a prior arrangement to swap it with someone else should mine be single taped, then I might hold off.

You need to stop thinking about it in terms of RRP. Yes some purchase for flipping purposes however there are a lot who don't. Remember we're collectors.

As collectors who never intend on selling our toys, who cares how much the toys are selling for on the secondary market? And as I said, even if you do take the option to sell it, financially/mathematically speaking as long as you don't sell it for less than what you paid for then you're not making a loss.

But yeah, if people insist on having single-taped figures then I suppose there are measures they can take to help get it. Worse case scenario, just hang onto that toy as a place-holder until you can find a single-taped toy, then either do a direct exchange or sell off your initial double-taped figure. Unless you're selling it for less than what you paid then you're making zero loss.

[griffin]

Getting a toy directly from a retailer - i.e. non-second hand sale, would guarantee that the toy isn't second hand.

No it doesn't, which is why it is a big issue here - if the toy has been swapped out for a knock off or a defective toy, it may not be noticed until it is too late... and is an unnecessary hassle if it is noticed.
If you bought it from a physical store, remember that most retailers here take back items for refunds, and even though we've seen how damaged those returned toys can be (or be replaced with a completely different toy), someone could have damaged the toy or replaced it with a knock off.
Or, if bought/pre-ordered from an online store, most sell second-hand toys (which includes sealed, and alleged sealed toys), and many smaller businesses are run by collectors who fill out their private collections with their own stock, and who knows if some are even swapping out their old toys with newer ones (like people who have returned toys to a retailer for a refund, replacing the toy with the earlier release that they already bought due to better colours or fixed engineering issues).

And as people have noted, there are those who only buy sealed toys to have them on display sealed, as people do with non-action figure statues... as well as those who keep certain expensive or rare figures sealed, to maintain the higher value that sealed toys have*, in case they need to sell part/all of their collection.
Not everyone is like you and I, intending to die with their collection. How many people do you still know from the first year or two of this community are still fans with their collection intact.... it means the toys with better value (the sealed ones) are a better investment.

* no sane person would claim that a sealed toy has the same "RRP" or resale value as an out-of-packaging toy. The whole point of prioritising sealed toys (for me) is to almost guarantee (outside of factory QC issues) that it is a legit toy, it has all its accessories, and that it isn't damaged. Once a box has been opened (resealed or not), you can't guarantee that... you can't risk as much money on that possibility. And you can't rely on "consumer protection", demanding refunds... even in Australia. Just look at Premium Collectables - a registered business that is bound by Consumer Law, but didn't... so is now facing court. And in general in Australia, Consumer Protection refunds do not cover second hand goods... and it wording on a listing has allowed for a double-taped toy to be deemed a second hand toy, you have no recompense if it does end up being damaged or a knock-off.
When I got the POTP Predaking from OhMyPrimus (from Singapore), the box tape had been roughly cut - that had me worried because that online store sells second hand toys, loose toys, and unlicensed toys (maybe even KOs). And what if something inside had been damaged or obviously swapped out - the online store may be decent enough to do an exchange, but should you really have to go through all that extra time and effort, waiting another 3-4 weeks for your toys.... when it could all have been prevented if they had made sure that the items they were shipping out were still sealed.


BTW, when someone is posting questions here, desperately needing help with something important, people need to focus on answering that request, and be careful not get side-tracked with their opinions or beliefs about the subject matter.

[DELTAprime]

And you can't rely on "consumer protection", demanding refunds... even in Australia.

Also if you're buying in a private sale consumer protections don't apply as the laws only cover actual retailers. There's not much protecting you if buy a double-taped MISB item in a private sale.

That's honestly a reason why for the few CHUG characters I'm looking at loose complete listings with a lot of photos more than MISB.

[GoktimusPrime]

No it doesn't, which is why it is a big issue here - if the toy has been swapped out for a knock off or a defective toy, it may not be noticed until it is too late... and is an unnecessary hassle if it is noticed.
If you bought it from a physical store, remember that most retailers here take back items for refunds, and even though we've seen how damaged those returned toys can be (or be replaced with a completely different toy), someone could have damaged the toy or replaced it with a knock off.
Or, if bought/pre-ordered from an online store, most sell second-hand toys (which includes sealed, and alleged sealed toys), and many smaller businesses are run by collectors who fill out their private collections with their own stock, and who knows if some are even swapping out their old toys with newer ones (like people who have returned toys to a retailer for a refund, replacing the toy with the earlier release that they already bought due to better colours or fixed engineering issues).

Are you serious? I never knew that sort of stuff happened!

BTW, when someone is posting questions here, desperately needing help with something important, people need to focus on answering that request, and be careful not get side-tracked with their opinions or beliefs about the subject matter.

Fair enough, I meant no disrespect and was only asking out of curiosity.

Anyway, in the spirit of trying to be more helpful, I'd like to reiterate my suggestion about prearranging trades, or hang onto the double-taped toys as place holders until you are able to trade it with another collector who has a single-sealed figure. Or at worst, repurchase the toy later with a single-taped box and sell off your MISB double-taped box. Non-sealed collectors won't care... at worst you're still selling an MIB toy, just not MISB.

Another choice might be to just try and buy the toy yourself from a physical store. That way you can visually inspect the condition of the toy first hand before purchasing. This may require shopping from specialty import stores, which admittedly are very expensive (due to Australian import taxes/duties/levies), and also increasingly rare with the shift towards online shopping. But say if you live in Melbourne, you might be able to physically walk into a place like The Little Toy Company and inspect the toy for yourself first hand (I personally don't rate TLTC for preordering stuff, but they seem pretty good for already in-stock items).

If the toy is in Japan, options include:
* Attempting to stick with a reputable online dealer. I've never ever received a double taped figure from anyone, and I usually get most of my JP TFs from HLJ.
* Stores like Mandarake (which are both brick and mortar and online) will explicitly tell you if a toy is double taped, and I think the prices for those figures are lower. Mandarake are usually pretty good with transparency when it comes to the nature and condition of the toys they sell. Here's an example of a toy that they sold where the description lists it as having been double-tape resealed by the manufacturer (heh, double-taped Doublecross ).
* I realise that this option isn't available to everyone, but if you have a friend in Japan you could ask them to personally try and hunt down a single taped figure for you at their local stores.