The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[GoktimusPrime]

Time for my moment of hypocrisy:

I don't buy unlicensed toys or accessories, but I do buy unlicensed merchandise. e.g.: backpack, clothes, car badges etc., because finding officially licensed fashion items is damn hard to find, especially before Jayjays started doing TF clothes (which is only a fairly recent thing). And there are still lots of things that I still cannot find licensed items for like neckties, pants, socks, pyjamas etc., so anything I can't find I'll make myself using iron-on transfers. Some item are also - to me - prohibitively rare and expensive, like Transformer shoes. I'm not a sneaker collector and I'd really like some cheap generic-style TF shoes; even like the kind you'd buy at Kmart. I'd make my own pair with iron-ons, but shoes are also made from rubber which melt under the iron.

My goal is to build an entire wardrobe full of TF-image covered clothes and clothing accessories so that each and every day I am covered head to toe in Transformers imagery. At the moment my daily dress consists of:
+ Transformers underwear (licensed)
+ Transformers shirts (mostly licensed, some unlicensed)
+ Transformers pants (unlicensed - self made)
+ Transformers backpacks (unlicensed - one purchased, another self made)
+ Transformers umbrella (unlicensed)
+ Transformers hat (licensed)
+ Transformers jackets (licensed)
+ Transformers wristwatch (licensed)
+ Transformers scarf (unlicensed - self made)
+ Transformers glove (unlicensed - self made)
+ Transformers neckties (unlicensed - self made)
+ Transformers belts (licensed and unlicensed)
+ Transformers car badge (unlicensed, although I have licensed magnets on my car too)

I would _love_ to buy more officially licensed fashion and fashion accessories if only they would make them (for adults - I see some awesome TF clothes for kids, including a beanie which I'd buy in a heartbeat if they were made in adult sizes).

[STL]

I think there are two arguments here - legal and ethical/moral.

Legal point: yes, both counterfeits and fan items infringe on HasTak's IP.

Ethical/moral point: counterfeits are direct violations and attempt to deceive consumers whereas fan items do not. Counterfeiters are primarily motivated by personal gain/profit whereas fan item producers are primarily motivated by their love for the franchise and dedication to the fandom. As I understand it the money they charge for these items is to cover the cost of manufacture, and not for profit. If they are substantially profiting from this, then it would change the ethical argument - but I'm working on the assumption that they're not-for-profit.

Legally, agreed.

Morally, I'm not sure about that the tenacity of that assumption that it is not for profit. If it isn't, then it goes further to my point.

Even more so, I think the moral dimension of it needs to be separated from the fact .that Hasbro is a corporation. What if it was just a single individual who invested all this time into it and then this corporation ran away with the idea and made extortionate profits? I'm certain there'd be more sympathy. There are countless instants of this in commercial history, mind you. But the point is, Hasbro/Takara being a corporation does not change the nature of the transgression.

That;'s not to say that if Hasbro/Takara hasn't ever taken ideas from someone else. As Kyle has pointed out they have. But two wrongs do not make a right either. So the KOers or mass-customisers are in the same boat. It doesn't justify their position to infringe morally just b/c Hasbro/Takara have. Just b/c someone steals, it doesn't all of a sudden make sense that you steal from someone, right?

I certainly don't. I don't collect anything that is fan-made (my collection is after all, a (licensed/official) Transformers(r) collection). That's because I personally feel that they contaminate the purity of my collection.

And as I noted to Gok, that makes you one of the few people have any right to decry KOs. You're consistent on your position. The rest of us, not so much.

People purchasing a fan-made/KO figure (especially if it is cheaper or is an almost exact replica of the real thing) are less likely to purchase the real thing, and thus negatively impacts Hasbro/Takara sales.

Not to mention that Replica out-of-release figures (that don't directly impact on sales), irritates fans/collectors of real TFs products, who can no longer purchase an item with the piece of mind that it isn't a fake. It can also indirectly impacts on legitimate sales (albeit a negligible amount), by the occasional newbie/kid/parent who gets stung by a counterfeit, and gets turned off the whole franchise/fandom.

I don't think that being a replica changes the landscape on this issue. Fact is you are still also potentially depriving of Hasbro/Takara an opportunity down the line. Would they be now keen to release a armoured Ultra Magnus? Or a new Buster Prime with the guns if a cheaper custom set is available rather than buying the same figure all over? Or the custom Grimlock crown set which is now in direct competition with the Takara exclusive? You are depriving the rightful owner of their property rights whether or not they've done it yet. Once you produce it, it removes the opportunity for them or puts them in competition with something based completely on their IP. This impacts their sales. Heck though it doesn't even come down to whether it competes. Simple fact is that the infringement exists. That cannot be justified irrespective of the position. It's like saying to someone, youve got to much spare land you're doing nothing with. I'm going to build my pool onto your land onto the part you've never used

You couldn't tolerate that. You can't tolerate this just b/c it works for you.

The logic just isn't sound.

I also deride KOs and will purchase several of these. Call me hypocrite.

[QUOTE=Defcon;120613And to be now hypocritical!
[/QUOTE]

But that's the point of this Soapbox. We don't have to be hypocritical. we just need to appreciate our positon on the matter. The simple fact is that there is one and the one and the same infringement that occurs in the first place. That it is that same infringement that allows the existence of both. Just b/c we as fabs have a personally vested interested doesn't change the fundamental nature of the infringement. We cannot have it work for us one way, but then staunchly take the opposition position when it doesn't go our way. There has to be consistency.

That's when it's hypocritical.

[griffin]

How does this:

I don't think that being a replica changes the landscape on this issue. Fact is you are still also potentially depriving of Hasbro/Takara an opportunity down the line. Would they be now keen to release a armoured Ultra Magnus? Or a new Buster Prime with the guns if a cheaper custom set is available rather than buying the same figure all over? Or the custom Grimlock crown set which is now in direct competition with the Takara exclusive? You are depriving the rightful owner of their property rights whether or not they've done it yet. Once you produce it, it removes the opportunity for them or puts them in competition with something based completely on their IP. This impacts their sales. Heck though it doesn't even come down to whether it competes. Simple fact is that the infringement exists. That cannot be justified irrespective of the position. It's like saying to someone, youve got to much spare land you're doing nothing with. I'm going to build my pool onto your land onto the part you've never used

You couldn't tolerate that. You can't tolerate this just b/c it works for you.

The logic just isn't sound.

...disagree with what you were responding to:

Originally Posted by griffin
People purchasing a fan-made/KO figure (especially if it is cheaper or is an almost exact replica of the real thing) are less likely to purchase the real thing, and thus negatively impacts Hasbro/Takara sales.

Not to mention that Replica out-of-release figures (that don't directly impact on sales), irritates fans/collectors of real TFs products, who can no longer purchase an item with the piece of mind that it isn't a fake. It can also indirectly impacts on legitimate sales (albeit a negligible amount), by the occasional newbie/kid/parent who gets stung by a counterfeit, and gets turned off the whole franchise/fandom.

I was pointing out that Replicas, even of past figures, impacts the bottom line of the Brand owners. Even if it is of a lesser amount with the Replica past figures. We know about the controversy of the Gen1 Constructicons - I think the new movie has improved the chances of a reissue, but we would have had one ages ago (for Takara to profit from and generate more reissues, and maybe even more combiner reissues), if it weren't for Replica Constructicons. The additional point I was making here is the (rare) occasion that has a potential long-term customer turned away from the Brand after being disappointed or upset over getting Replica figure (of any era) that they didn't know was a Replica when buying it.

[GoktimusPrime]

Just b/c someone steals, it doesn't all of a sudden make sense that you steal from someone, right?

But what about consideration of motive?

[STL]

How does this:



...disagree with what you were responding to:



I was pointing out that Replicas, even of past figures, impacts the bottom line of the Brand owners. Even if it is of a lesser amount with the Replica past figures. We know about the controversy of the Gen1 Constructicons - I think the new movie has improved the chances of a reissue, but we would have had one ages ago (for Takara to profit from and generate more reissues, and maybe even more combiner reissues), if it weren't for Replica Constructicons. The additional point I was making here is the (rare) occasion that has a potential long-term customer turned away from the Brand after being disappointed or upset over getting Replica figure (of any era) that they didn't know was a Replica when buying it.

Oops my bad. I read it as you were meaning that replicas are worse than mass-customised product b/c they hurt Hasbro/Takara's bottom line more and for that reason replicas/KOs are a worser animal. I didn't realise it was expanding on the same point for both.

But what about consideration of motive?

Motives we have agreed are subjective. I can't say with conviction who does it for profit, who does it "for the fandom". And I don't think it helps either whatever the motive. If a homeless person robbed your house so he could continue putting food on the table for their kids, would that make it okay? I think again, we as a fandom don't have much credibility on the issue once we starting buying these custom products. We can't have our cake and eat it.

[GoktimusPrime]

a homeless person robbed your house so he could continue putting food on the table for their kids, would that make it okay?

Good point. I've been robbed before and it's an awful experience - and the person's motives is inconsequential, the fact is that you've been robbed. (the cops told me it was by junkies though )

[griffin]

Oops my bad. I read it as you were meaning that replicas are worse than mass-customised product b/c they hurt Hasbro/Takara's bottom line more and for that reason replicas/KOs are a worser animal. I didn't realise it was expanding on the same point for both.

Overall, yes, my entire post was scaling the different issues instead of just painting all as equally good or equally bad. It's just that the small portion of my post you quoted in your reply post, didn't appear to relate to what you were saying in your reply (to my entire post, assumedly), which confused me.

I see this issue as a scale/spectrum, not a simple black-and-white sorting of the elements being raised.
Replicas (of current/future product) IS worse for the bottom line, but that doesn't mean I'm saying the others are okay because they 'aren't as bad'. I don't support any, but they aren't all equally evil.

On a scale of Worst to Not-Really-That-Bad:
Replica current/future product - hurts bottom line of Hasbro/Takara most, if it is a cheaper alternative.
Replica past product - hurts the bottom line a lot less, mostly from upset customers of the fake product. As for preventing reissues - it would only limit the potential pool of reissue candidates, and we've seen 8 years of reissues with no signs of it running out of sellable candidates (Besides, Reissues aren't a significant product line/money-maker out of all the millions of TFs produced each year by Hasbro and TakaraTomy anyway, so they wouldn't care too much which figures get done if there is enough demand for it - they still took a chance with Metroplex despite the Replica).
Custom figures - would only hurt Hasbro/Takara on the rare occasion an official version of that character in that same form is produced (if Fan-made versions of Drift and Arcee go ahead, I think they would be the first - but knowing an official, well-sculpted/engineered convertable figure is on the way, these probably won't even be produced, or sell much at all).
Custom accessories - doesn't compete with Hasbro/Takara or prevent a purchase of an official product, but instead creates a need to purchase an official item for that Custom accessory, generating sales for the Brand owner.

They might all be illegal, and to some fans are all just as avoidable, but when it comes to affecting Sales, or the Bottom Line, of the Brand Owners, it's obvious that they would prioritise combatting Replicas first, because they have the greater negative impact.
It makes it difficult to claim that Customised accessories have just the same impact to Hasbro/Takara as Replica figures when we see one encourages sales of official product, while the other discourages it. Custom figures wouldn't even be close to the affect Replicas have, because even if an official figure was done later, fan-made stuff is still so different in design/engineering/sculpting, fans would still want to buy the official figure if it is good enough to buy. After all, that's what it would come down to - the existance of a fan-made alternative won't be preventing the purchase of the official figure if that official figure is just a terrible toy. If the official figure is a good toy, people who bought a fan-made figure will still buy it because the fan-made convertable figures just can't compete with the real thing.

[STL]

On a scale of Worst to Not-Really-That-Bad:
Replica current/future product - hurts bottom line of Hasbro/Takara most, if it is a cheaper alternative.
Replica past product - hurts the bottom line a lot less, mostly from upset customers of the fake product. As for preventing reissues - it would only limit the potential pool of reissue candidates, and we've seen 8 years of reissues with no signs of it running out of sellable candidates (Besides, Reissues aren't a significant product line/money-maker out of all the millions of TFs produced each year by Hasbro and TakaraTomy anyway, so they wouldn't care too much which figures get done if there is enough demand for it - they still took a chance with Metroplex despite the Replica).
Custom figures - would only hurt Hasbro/Takara on the rare occasion an official version of that character in that same form is produced (if Fan-made versions of Drift and Arcee go ahead, I think they would be the first - but knowing an official, well-sculpted/engineered convertable figure is on the way, these probably won't even be produced, or sell much at all).
Custom accessories - doesn't compete with Hasbro/Takara or prevent a purchase of an official product, but instead creates a need to purchase an official item for that Custom accessory, generating sales for the Brand owner.

I think that's a great spectrum you've got going there which shows degrees of relativity That said, what do you think about custom accessories that compromise Hasbro's future ability to profit. for example, the guns being made for movie Prime are in direct competition with the Buster Prime release. If you can get those relatively cheaper, why would you want to buy a US Hasbro Buster Prime which lacks all the silver of Takara (assuming they Hasbro release their own version down the track). Or if it clashes with exclusives like the Crown Grimlock? Again that directly affects sales of the official product b/c the reason they offer a second release with a slight variation down the line is to profit from the base mold. What if someone had made TFM Ironhide's guns prior to the release of the ROTF version? Again that's cannabilising future releases. This is even more the case given Hasbro has said in recent times it wants to focus on brand recognition through repainting main characters and giving them a new prefix as opposed to all new name. The way they do this is by a different accessory etc so it really bites into them and is as bad as say the first category of a custom of a current/future product.

So while I do think the spectrum's a great starting point I don't think it's explanatory power is completely sound. That's probably why the focus still needs to be on recognition of the nature of the transgression here. It is one and the same across the entire spectrum. It's ultimately the same transgression that permits each of those categories to exist and in that sense none is relatively less reprehensible than the other.

[griffin]

Indeed, there is no such thing as 'half illegal', so each would be just as bad in the eyes of the law. I just think it is worth breaking down the scale, like the difference between murder and manslaughter (both are bad, but one is worse).

As for custom accessories that replicate future/existing accessories, it is part of the 'Replica Current/Future Product' category (I didn't use the word 'toy' because it isn't just whole toys in that category) because people will buy it, 'if it is a cheaper alternative' to the official (whole) product.

[kup]

When it comes to MP Grimlock and his crown - You would not get a full $300 figure just for the hat, I certainly wouldn't. If I wanted just the hat I would go for the accessory kit instead or not get one at all.

Buster Prime's gun: Assuming I already own the first release, I wouldn't buy and import a whole figure just for the gun. I would get Buster Prime only if I didn't own the original release which I don't. However If I already owned the original, I would probably look into getting the accessory kit instead as a gun or a crown is not worth the full cost of buying the same high end figure twice.

I am sure that I am not the only one who would see it like that.