Do Music and Sport Label Transformers count? (UCM A-20 poll)

[GoktimusPrime]

Music and Sport Label Transformers don't exist in the Gokiverse*

*Yeah okay, this post was just a shameless excuse to use that word.

[griffin]

It's not that simple at all, and the Sports Label and Music Label shouldn't have been grouped together in the one poll. It might not make much of a difference with the result, but Sports Label being toys was never in question (as they already fit the criteria as Official Takara convertable Character action figures). Music Label on the other hand are music devices that are made to look like toys (but wouldn't be bought for kids to use as toys), so the transformation is the *gimmick*, not the MP3 player. The question here should be whether we should count Transformers products, if being an action figure is not their primary function. The primary purpose of Soundwave is as an MP3 player (good or not, that is why it was produced), it was never marketted as (yet another) Soundwave toy with an MP3 player gimmick. Same with the Rumble/Frenzy Earphones - they were created as an audio product, with a transforming *gimmick* thrown in. No one would have bought them to play with as toys, nor would anyone have bought the MP3 player and let kids play with it as they would any real TFs toy.
Us older fans might like to see it as a toy with a crappy music gimmick, but it comes down to what TakaraTomy were releasing it for, and that was as a Music Device, that was also made to convert. Unlike Gen1 Perceptor who was not released as a Microscope with a transforming gimmick, it was a Transformers toy with a (crappy) microscope gimmick.
The point I am trying to make here is that if Music Label items are considered toys, then other items that 'transform but are not action figures as their primary function' will count (like the DVD case Optimus). Sure it would be a crappy toy, but I could list dozens of Gen1 toys that are worse than that DVD case and less playable.
The vote should be asking people if they would seriously fork out money for an expensive set of Soundwave, Soundblaster, Rumble and Frenzy just to use them as roughly as normal toys or even let young kids play with them *as toys* - instead of what us older collectors (who wouldn't do much playing with them) plan to do with them (collect dust on a display shelf).

[TheDirtyDigger]

Us older fans might like to see it as a toy with a crappy music gimmick, but it comes down to what TakaraTomy were releasing it for

I thought this was an opinion based poll?



I gotta say...and I truly don't intend to offend here...but to Griff and Gok mainly...
I just can't comprehend your mindsets guys when you seem to only consider what is 'official' to be part of your personal TF universe.

Just to reiterate my position..I generally couldn't really give a frog's what or how the giant and detached multi-national corporations that produce TF's name, market, paint and create their TF's to be. Once it is in my posession it is whatever I deem it to be in relation to my enjoyment and imagination.

I know Griff you would never touch a custom and Gok for you if HasTak say this is the official name of 'X' then 'X' is what he is called to you and it can't be anything else even though 'Y' would have been so much more appropriate.

Please understand that I'm not saying your perspective/opinion is wrong I just can't wrap my head around it. I just could never let HasTak dictate what is right and wrong when it comes to something that should always be about imagination.
If you could I would appreciate a rebuttal against what I say as I do always love to see two sides to everything and also....mods....I've probably rambled on incoherently too much in the wrong place so please feel free to move the bulk of this raving to somewhere appropriate.

[iceburn]

i think there should be more options available in the poll

to me, Music Label does not count while Sports Label is definitely counted to my collection; hence i've accidentially voted for a No in this instance

[kup]

To me Music label counts regardless what its primary marketed function is.

When you look at it, it is an articulated action figure with weapons and accessories that serve absolutely no purpose as an MP3 player. This means that despite the marketing, the designer intended it to be every bit as much of an action figure (perhaps more so) than what its marketed as.

He does have the 'Transformers label' on it and is also'Takara'. On top of that he is an action figure with weapons and accessories that Transforms into a defined alt mode.

When it comes to the Transforming case. Well the case was never intended to be a toy, just an DVD case that unfolds into Movie Prime. The robot mode is clearly supposed to represent Movie Prime down to the truck kibble so 'fictionally' its not supposed to transform into a DVD case like a real gear would. Its just a 'Special Edition' gimmick as many other DVD release cases that have picture frames, popups, etc. So in my view, the unfolding case is something radically different to Music label and it can't be compared.

Edit:

For the record, I understand that the purpose of this Poll is to update the UCM to formally include (or exclude) Music Label and used when comparing collection numbers with fans who are interested in doing so. However I do share DirtyDiggers sentiments on the matter when it comes to me personally deciding where my toy will belong in my own collection regardless of what HasTak says.

Something to also keep in mind is that this sort of discussion coming up on a Poll like this is inevitable within the same thread. People are going to want to voice their opinion on the matter regardless specially when the poll only offers absolutes (Yes/NO) and the toy line is a very 'Gray' area when you consider both the Marketing and the toy itself.

[STL]

It sounds like an issue of intent is at the centre of the debate here. For me, substantive intent is far more important. As per the points raised by Kup, once you examine the packaging and the nature of the product, I think it becomes evident this is far more a collectors item than a toy for kids.

One must remember too that Takara is far better at catering to the older collector. There was a press release once which showed that one of Takara's problems was maintaining the interest level of an increasingly older Japanese population. I think that that is indicative of the Takara mindset. They are developing products that are adult collector minded bearing in mind that their market is constantly changing.

MP3 Soundwave is that. It's supposed to be a high end toy with an MP3 gimmick to lure the adult collector in. Hence, it's price tag. It isn't aimed at kids b/c takara have made a conscious decision on what it's target market is and aligning it's promotion with what it's trying to do in the market. IE. tailor it to the adult market which has far more buying power.

Just b/c the shoes can't be worn doesn't automatically make them a toy either. It's because they turn into robots. We can view them though as again being marketed to the adult market. They aren't for children, they are a novel toy. Much like the Botcon figures. Most of us wouldn't let a kid play with it. I know I wouldn't. It doesn't make it any less of a toy though. Gimmick or not, at it's heart we have a toy. It has immense play value. It has accessories that do so. It isn't compromised by design.

So yes, literally it may have been part of the Music label but substantively there is no denying that it is a Transformer. The accessories, position of the Sound card all go a long way to reinforcing that. To follow the literal explanation without considering the substantive is a short route to chaos. And I'm inclined to believe that there is cogency to assert that this is undeniably a Transformer.

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay, admin/mods please lock this thread, I'll make a new gooderer poll (luckily I haven't posted this on any other boards yet, cos I really wouldn't be @$$ed to re-do this thread over and over again )

[kup]

We can always keep this thread open for discussing the things concerning the poll and leaving the other thread clear. Discussion already started here anyway.

[GoktimusPrime]

Better yet, merge the discussions here w/ the new thread and delete this one.

[griffin]

As Kup said, the topic can remain open for further discussion to better clarify the focus of the next poll.

And I agree with DD, in that each person can count what they like personally. The point of a universal counting method though is to give you two numbers - one for your own count, and one to compare to the rest of the community for us to have an idea of the average collection size.
That said though, this UCM starts to put people off using it if it has 20+ conditions to it. There might be heaps of variables during the 23 years of TFs, but this counting method is its own worst enemy trying to keep track of them all.