Henkei VS Hasbro

[GoktimusPrime]

Yes, they're generally more G1 accurate, but whether that's a good thing or not is entirely subjective.

I really don't like how Universe Prowl's missiles are unpainted. Being plain white makes them look really bland to me. I prefer the chrome missiles on Henkei Prowl - aside from making it more G1-like it also gives it highlight. Even if Hasbro had slapped on some silver or grey paint... something to make it less bland.

The yellows on Universe Sunstreaker are just awful, I don't like the shades or the fact that they mismatch. I much prefer the richer cadmium yellow on Henkei Sunstreaker.

I also really like how TakaraTOMY usually gives their Transformers tech spec cards and maintain a feedback survey (although the pre-TOMY surveys were a lot better). I also much prefer how TakaraTOMY bothered to try to maintain the Octane name (as Destron Octone, which is like "Decepticon Octane"), whereas Hasbro calling theirs "Tankor" is five flavours of fail and reeks of a lack of effort to me. With some effort I'm sure they could've worked out some way to maintain the name in some form, like maybe "Mega Octane". With "Tankor" I just thought, "are they even trying to maintain the Octane name??" -- I bought Henkei Octane over Universe Tankor purely over the name (I couldn't really care all that much about the chrome on this mould).

I agree with Lord_Zed though -- I prefer Universe Cyclonus over Henkei Cyclonus. But I don't like the mismatching greys. I don't see why Hasbro can't get things like the yellows on Sunstreaker or greys on Cyclonus just to be the same shade. :/

Hasbro and Tomy's releases have a big difference between them. Hasbro's releases are way, way, way, cheaper. They spend less money on paint aps, but as a result, their toys are *half the cost* of Tomy's releases when you compare the Yen prices to the USD prices.

So yeah, Tomy's releases have more paint, but it's not because they CARE about the consumer more. They're not graciously granting you a more G1 accurate paint job out of some desire to give you better customer satisfaction. It's not because they don't care as much about the bottom line.

It's because they make you pay for it.

We have a skewed view here in Australia, because we already pay insane prices for our Transformers -- we get American release Transformers at more than twice American retail. But those toys were DESIGNED for American retail release.

The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective... unless the price of Transformers here becomes cheaper and more comparable to what Americans pay. And that's not taking into account other factors like differences in average wages, cost of living etc.

[Jhiaxus]

The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective... unless the price of Transformers here becomes cheaper and more comparable to what Americans pay. And that's not taking into account other factors like differences in average wages, cost of living etc.

The point I was making was that the reason Tomy's toys have more paint is that they COST MORE in their INTENDED MARKET.

That's got very little to do with the skewed view we have in Australia, and PRETENDING that it does is ridiculous. It might ENCOURAGE you to buy the Henkei toys, sure. That's fine, that's valid.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that Tomy doesn't put more paint on the toys out of a sense of customer satisfaction.

And as for the Quality Control thing, it works both ways. I've hardly EVER had to return a Hasbro toy. But I've had Tomy toys broken STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. All the anecdotal evidence I've ever heard put Tomy's quality control way bellow Hasbro's. But you know what? It's anecdotal.

LIke the tyre cracking? My Wild Ride's tyres cracked. he's a Japanese release. My Super X-Brawn's tyres never cracked -- or haven't yet.

Anecdotal.

Finally... will you please stop calling them "Takara". Takara doesn't exist any more. The company is named TakaraTomy in Japan, but as you point out you live in Australia. You have an Australian perspective. You only see things through an Australian point of view. In Australia the company is *TOMY*. Tomy is its international trading name. Look at any of your movie toys. Do you see the name Takara on them? Nope, nowhere.

Tomy.
--Jhiaxus.
(Seriously, dude. I get it... you look at it from an Australian perspective, that doesn't change the simple fact that neither the toys from Hasbro nor the toys from Tomy are made for the Australian market.)

[Darth Conlan]

Are there any rumors of new seekers coming out? To me it would be a no brainer to name and release the Rainmakers.

[kup]

Are there any rumors of new seekers coming out? To me it would be a no brainer to name and release the Rainmakers.

The obvious repaint would be Sunstorm but nothing has been announced for Classics. However if one happens, I am afraid that Hasbro will paint him piss yellow rather than orange like they did with titanium. The Animated and E-hobby color schemes are the way to go.

[Darth Conlan]

Yeah I have the E-Hobby one coming from ebay. Love him. He is my Fav transformer. Would like him in henkei/classic/generation though.

[GoktimusPrime]

Finally... will you please stop calling them "Takara". Takara doesn't exist any more. The company is named TakaraTomy in Japan, but as you point out you live in Australia. You have an Australian perspective. You only see things through an Australian point of view. In Australia the company is *TOMY*. Tomy is its international trading name. Look at any of your movie toys. Do you see the name Takara on them? Nope, nowhere.

Tomy.

In Japanese they're still called "TakaraTOMY" (タカラトミー), and TV commercials will have the announcer say, "TakaraTOMY" (not just "Takara" or "TOMY"). Their official website is takaratomy.co.jp. I accept that "TOMY" is their international trading name, but in Japan they're called TakaraTOMY. I guess in this regard I'm looking at it from a Japanese POV. ;p

The only time I say "Takara" now is if I'm referring to the company prior to the merger with Tomy; e.g. Car Robot = Takara. For anything made since then I say "TakaraTOMY." If I'm referring to the company from both before and since the merger I type "Takara(TOMY)."

If you or anyone else wants to call them "TOMY" then that's fine - although it would only be applicable if discussing the company in its post-merged state. If we were to talk about say Japanese G1 then it would be "Takara."

(Seriously, dude. I get it... you look at it from an Australian perspective, that doesn't change the simple fact that neither the toys from Hasbro nor the toys from Tomy are made for the Australian market.)

As Takara (pre-merger) once kindly told me, Australia is a Hasbro market. So it is Hasbro's responsibility to look after us. Now having said that, I'm not going to start pointing blame at Hasbro Australia for decisions made by their U.S. parent company... but ultimately it is Hasbro Australia who's responsible for our market. Isn't there anything Hasbro AU can do to bring down the cost of TFs here or are prices completely set by Australian retailers like Kmart, Target etc.??

So don'tcha just love it whenever American fans start whinging about how expensive Transformers are in the U.S.?! (-_-) :/

[Lint]

So don'tcha just love it whenever American fans start whinging about how expensive Transformers are in the U.S.?! (-_-) :/

You do realise our minimum wage is close to double theirs? So given that our TF prices are roughly double theirs, if you're complaining I think they still have the right to too.

[5FDP]

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective

I guess in this regard I'm looking at it from a Japanese POV. ;p

I get it... you want your cake and eat it too

[Lord_Zed]

So don'tcha just love it whenever American fans start whinging about how expensive Transformers are in the U.S.?! (-_-) :/

No, but I love it when they whinge about how exspensive Henkeis and other Japanese TF's are now due to the relative weakness of the USD to the yen.

For me the minimal price difference as already discussed between Henkeis and Universe is the clincher. Although 3 Henkeis that far exceed thier Hasbro counterparts even without this would be Megatron, Astrotrain and Smokescreen.

As for the Seeker debate Hasbro have announced Thrust, and they always seem to release 2 seeker jet molds in previous Universe and Classics assortments, many fans are excpecting Dirge so yeah my money is on Sunstorm.

[griffin]

I was wondering is there a legal agreement between Takara and Hasbro that "the more G1 accurate paint always belongs to Takara"?

The only arrangement they have is to try not to have an exact identical colour scheme to an exclusive toy done by the other one.
Other than that, for toys released by both companies - TT is often developing their product range after Hasbro, so have the flexability of changing colours or items in their release, based on the retail price and target demographic in their own market (Japan).

Both Henkei and Universe toys are made in the same factory with two production lines. Hasbro prefers to spend less on manufacturing costs for maximum profit while the Japanese have more of an emphasis on product quality and costumer satisfaction.

As noted by Jhiaxus, the retail (and as such wholesale) price of the same figure in both US and JP markets, dictate how much each respective company can spend on the product (like packaging, number of paint apps, chrome, pack-in extras, etc), to appeal to their different target demographics.
If both products were being released from the warehouse at the same wholesale price (which is unlikely based on their respective retail prices), then it would be fair to compare each product based on other factors.
Hasbro's target demographic is for the younger, 'general' age group, so need to make a cheaper product to be 'better value' to more kids and parents. TT's target is more 'niche', with older kids and committed collectors in mind, so need to spend more on the look of their product and packaging to entice the more discerning pallet - and as such, passes on that expense with a higher retail price.
Good or bad, Hasbro's 'cheaper' (in price and quality) approach is giving the TFs Brand a better long-term viability and outlook than TT. If anything, if Hasbro wasn't generating as much money and recognition for the Brand, would TT be investing into new product at all? Animated, Movie-verse, Masterpiece, Henkei - the bulk of TT product recently has all been instigated and funded by Hasbro (with licensing fees being a source of income for TT). If Hasbro were able to engineer the toys themselves and source their own factories to produce them, they probably wouldn't even have to pay licensing to TT. (I'm guessing that's what the licensing is for)

Is this fact or theory? If it's fact, I'd like to know more. If it's theory, that's cool too, just want to make sure

A lot of us who've been around a number of years, have moments when we just rattle off 'facts' that either have no recorded source, or just seem to fit what we've known from years of experiance with the Brand. I think for the benefit of the newer fans, and those who don't read everything in existance relating to Transformers, it is fair to ask for a source on anyone's claims (as long as it is done objectively, and you have an interest in the matter).
For instance, the first half of his statement is probably recorded somewhere, but I personally wouldn't have even thought about Referrencing that claim (if I stated it myself), as I just be recalling a number of 1st or 2nd hand accounts at BotCon or Hasbro Q&A, stating that. That said, if asked, I would probably have to dig through some BotCon reports somewhere or the TFwiki probably has it mentioned...
Not sure about the second half of the statement, pertaining to production/wholesale costs of Hasbro & TT, as that sort of thing is unlikely to be made public for a variety of reasons. Besides, if Hasbro are just commissioning TT to produce the toys for them, it would be like any other business/supplier relationship - the business (Hasbro) wants X amount of units at X amount of $ per unit - which leaves it up to the supplier (TT) to do it as profitable as possible within the parameters of Hasbro's minimum requirements (size, colours, etc). For their own product, TT can set their own requirements and per-unit costs, independant of what Hasbro does with theirs.

Gok has a Universe Hotshot which was mistakenly assembled with both Henkei and Universe parts out of factory packaging. This points that both releases are assembled within the same factory and therefore two production lines.

I read that as Jaydisc seeking a source for the second half of your statement, about production costs, as the first half would probably be generally accepted by most of us who've been in the fandom for a while.

Both Tomy and Hasbro are in the business of making money. They treat their products differently, but this is not a sign of how much they care.
(Seriously dude... I've seen this "Tomy cares more about the customers" claim made a million times and it's UTTER BULLTRIPE.)

I've heard better stories about TT's customer service, than Hasbro's. Not saying that relates to the intention behind how they produce their product, but TT's after-sale service is much better than Hasbro's, suggesting that they do have a greater interest in the customer AFTER they have purchased the product, instead of just trying to generate customers like Hasbro do.
If someone has a personal assumption on a matter that appears untrue, just ask for a source for their information, as it may encourage them to find out for sure if it is true, without getting them defensive over a verbal outburst and stubbornly sticking with what they believe.

The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective...

Since the point of the argument by Kup and Jhiaxus is based on production and quality standards of US and JP product, views on the final retail price in a secondary market (here) is irrelavent.
TT produce a product with a set wholesale price, for an expected retail price in Japan.
Hasbro pay TT to produce a product with a different set wholesale price, for a different expected retail price, in America.
Hasbro AUS pay Hasbro US, a much higher wholesale price to import US Hasbro product here, to sell onto retailers, for a much higher expected retail price here.

Just because TT toys can end up costing about the same as Hasbro product here, that's essentially a bonus to us Australians, as we end up having more choice for the same-priced US and JP figures.
If TT product or Hasbro US product is imported here (by a collector personally, or by an independant dealer), and the final price a collector pays for it is the same as the related Domestic Product, it shouldn't suggest that the Factory is producing each item for the same price (and extra colours or chrome are bonus features that one company is including at the expense of their profit margin). The Domestic product here has a wholesale price set by Hasbro US, so that reguardless of the fluctuating exchange rate, we have a set, standard price here (which would be for the Retailers benefit, so that they don't need to be adjusting prices every month).

Finally... will you please stop calling them "Takara". Takara doesn't exist any more. The company is named TakaraTomy in Japan, but as you point out you live in Australia. You have an Australian perspective. You only see things through an Australian point of view. In Australia the company is *TOMY*. Tomy is its international trading name. Look at any of your movie toys. Do you see the name Takara on them? Nope, nowhere.

Transformers currently produced in Japan, as per the comments on Henkei and reissue figures, has 'TakaraTomy' on the front of the packaging, in addition to 'Tomy' in the fine-print on the back. Either name is valid, and even if 'Takara' may no longer exist, it can still be used when referring to product produced while 'Takara' existed as a separate entity.

I don't know if it is just a transitional thing, but until the 'Takara' part of their labelling is dropped, I don't see it as being inaccurate using it, as everyone would know that TT, TakaraTomy, Takara, Tomy all refer to the JP version of TFs, while Hasbro refers to the US version.

I only begun to encounter heavy QC issues with Takara-Tomy during Henkei. Before that, I was very happy with them in that regard. On the other hand, Hasbro also had decent QC too but at around the time Universe 2.0 appeared, their QC also fell to the ground.

The merger/buyout of TT probably caused that, and the rapid rise of oil prices (cost of plastic). Since TT acquire the source of production (factories) on behalf of Hasbro and themselves, the cost to them needs to be balanced with the quality they can afford at the time - if cost of raw materials suddenly becomes more expensive, but they are locked into a wholesale price with Hasbro (and themselves), production costs may need to offset by cutting corners or increasing quotas on the workers.

(as can be seen by the length of this reply, this topic wasn't being followed by me until someone recently suggested I look at it - absence from a topic doesn't suggest I endorse the content or any verbal chastising within it.)