Power Core Combiners - do the new Minicons count?

[GoktimusPrime]

Article 07 already states that drones don't count. So don't worry about including them in this poll.

Now Article 02 states:

Nebulans, Master Robots, Motorvator partners, Pretender/Crossformer/Dinoforce shells and Action Master partners and vehicles do not count separately.

I agree that the PowerCore MiniCons are similar to Nebulans or Action Master partners which transform into weapons and accessories (and vehicles) for their larger primary Transformer partners. In effect they themselves are accessories (who happen to be named and can transform).

So if the majority vote "no" then I think we should lump them in with Article 02. If the majority votes "yes" then Article 02 will have to include a disclaimer that exempts them.

I'm going with no.

At the moment I believe they should, but we really need to wait for some official fiction with them in it

But Nebulans have extensive official fiction written for them (e.g. Spike Witwicky), yet they don't count independently.

They're named, they're interchangeable...I say let 'em count

Nebulans, Action Master Partners and some "peripheral" Transformers (re: Article 07) such as Scamper, Six Gun, Gasket, Grommet, Full-Tilt, Fasttrack et al. do not count separately according to the UCM. So why should these MiniCons?

[GoktimusPrime]

I'd like to add that one rationale that was discussed during other UCM poll threads was whether or not these toys would be considered to be meaningful Transformer action figures in their own right. The basic way to answer this question is to ask yourself, "Would I buy this toy if it were sold on its own?" (and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it)

For example, would you buy Chopster if it were sold on its own and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it? The Armada Mini-Con Rollbar on the other hand has better inherent play value as a Transformer action figure in its own right. In fact, IMO that Mini-Con is a better Transformer toy than Scavenger! On its own Rollbar is a lot like a Micromaster and has the same play value. Chopster on the other hand has the equivalent play value of a Nebulan, which most people don't count separately.

[kup]

Those limb things are more like upgrade accessories than actual individual toys so I say no.

[SofaMan]

For example, would you buy Chopster if it were sold on its own and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it? The Armada Mini-Con Rollbar on the other hand has better inherent play value as a Transformer action figure in its own right. In fact, IMO that Mini-Con is a better Transformer toy than Scavenger! On its own Rollbar is a lot like a Micromaster and has the same play value. Chopster on the other hand has the equivalent play value of a Nebulan, which most people don't count separately.

I like this argument, but it doesn't address Rook and Crosswise, who of course were Minicons that came with an Armada deluxe toy. Their only value is either together as a combiner, or as headmasters for Sideways. Dead End that came with Unicron could probably be included too. If we count them (even though they are the outliers of the Armada minicons), then I think we should count the PCC minicons.

Perhaps it's worth amending Articles 2 and 3 to accomodate this new argument about "independent play value", rather than creating arbitrary and unwieldy (albeit democratic) exceptions.

[GoktimusPrime]

I got Smoulder and Searchlight today -- and I must say that I'm enjoying my humble pie right now because I'm rather impressed. These toys, and yes, their Mini-Cons, exceeded my expectations.

So... I'd like to change my vote to a "yes" (I'd initially voted "no"). And I'd encourage others to wait until you've seen these toys for yourselves IRL before judging.

I like this argument, but it doesn't address Rook and Crosswise, who of course were Minicons that came with an Armada deluxe toy. Their only value is either together as a combiner, or as headmasters for Sideways.

Ditto Energon Omega Supreme's Mini-Con (I call him Omega Spreem ). Again, I'm not currently fussed about their inclusion because they're so few that it wouldn't effect the final results. If the majority of people vote for PCC mini-cons not to be counted, then I will reconsider amending Articles 02 and 03 to accomodate the special exemption for "Mini-Cons without independent play value."

Perhaps it's worth amending Articles 2 and 3 to accomodate this new argument about "independent play value", rather than creating arbitrary and unwieldy (albeit democratic) exceptions.

Classification will always be arbitrary and unwieldy... after all, even the exact definition of "independent play value" could be debated. For better or worse I like the fact that the UCM was democratically created.

I've also put this issue to vote with international fans too. I've also started a poll asking about how Combiner Class Devastator should be counted. Erm... has such a poll or discussion already occured here? (naturally I'd like to avoid making such a poll here if it's already been done) -- I tried doing a search but couldn't find anything.

[SofaMan]

Classification will always be arbitrary and unwieldy... after all, even the exact definition of "independent play value" could be debated. For better or worse I like the fact that the UCM was democratically created.

That's true, though I like the idea of "independent play value" as a guiding principle for helping to make decisions on this kind of thing.

And as for RotF Devastator, he's just a big Duocon with six parts. A Sexacon.

As Gimli said, "That still only counts as one!".

[griffin]

I'd like to add that one rationale that was discussed during other UCM poll threads was whether or not these toys would be considered to be meaningful Transformer action figures in their own right. The basic way to answer this question is to ask yourself, "Would I buy this toy if it were sold on its own?" (and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it)

I've come across a similar 'general rule', relating to how it is reviewed - would you review it on its own or with another figure. Generally*, if smaller figures in a multi-pack is rarely seen reviewed on its own, most would often not count it as a stand-alone toy when counting a collection. Example, would you see reviews of any of the following on their own - AM partners, Scamper, individual components of either ROTF Devastator, Nebulans?
Just because PCC's partners are called the same as Armada TFs partners, doesn't mean they have to be lumped together. This is a new line with a new concept/gimmick that differs from Armada Minicons. We are only getting 9 PCC 2-packs (9 Minicons) this year (according to Hasbro), so until we start getting more of a story and characterisation behind these Minicons, I won't be deciding until later.

(* 'Generally' doesn't mean 'always', so it can still be messy with exceptions occuring)

[SMHFConvoy]

I got Smoulder and Searchlight today -- and I must say that I'm enjoying my humble pie right now because I'm rather impressed. These toys, and yes, their Mini-Cons, exceeded my expectations.

Backwind (unfortunate name there!) projects a bit of personality with his gorilla like proportions. I put Seachlight on layby but I already have Smoulder and Chopster. Just because it's a rainy day I also came up with my sig image in the spirit of fun. I'll whip up another heralding the exact opposite later...

[GoktimusPrime]

Backwind (unfortunate name there!)

Not as unfortunate as Windbreaker.

projects a bit of personality with his gorilla like proportions.

Armour not Munky!

Just because it's a rainy day I also came up with my sig image in the spirit of fun. I'll whip up another heralding the exact opposite later...

I was about to say -- you change your avatar more often than I^some people change their undies!

[kup]

To make myself clear:

Minicons should be counted because they are transforming robots as well as individual toys.

PCC 'drones' should not be counted because they don't have a robot mode and are just accessories to 'power up' the center bot. They are also Dependant on combining with the main figure for its playability otherwise they are just a static block.