Rodimus Prime as a leader

[jimoinj]

Nope, it's not because I don't like the Japanese cartoon. It's because it's a separate and distinct cartoon to the english version of G1 Transformers. The characters were totally different. It didn't follow the G1 english series continuity. Fine if some of you are Japanese or prefer the Japanese cartoon, you can call it canon. But for the vast majority of Australians the G1 english version cartoon is it. When you talk about the Japanese series you are talking about an alternative continuity. Look it up on wikipedia, they're not even listed in the same article. The Japanese 'season 4' is not even Transformers G1, it's called 'Headmasters'. A separate and distinct series.

Of course the toys are the primary product, but here we are comparing the cartoon and comics. Comics are a niche market for fans, while the TV series was mainstream for the general public.

It's been mentioned that the Japanese series is an official Transformers product. Sure, but it's official in Japan, it was never officially broadcast in the west. And does it need to be said? We are not in Japan!

In any case, I would have thought it'd be a given we were talking about the english version continuity, not the foreign language version. Otherwise it's like if you say Galvatron was crazy in the G1 cartoon, and I reply no he wasn't because he was clever in the comics! Obviously different continuities, with different characters...you can't really bring both into the same discussion about the G1 cartoon continuity.

[GoktimusPrime]

Nope, it's not because I don't like the Japanese cartoon. It's because it's a separate and distinct cartoon to the english version of G1 Transformers. The characters were totally different. It didn't follow the G1 english series continuity

Just because it's different from what you've grown up with doesn't make it less canonically valid.

Fine if some of you are Japanese or prefer the Japanese cartoon, you can call it canon.

It doesn't matter if one likes Japanese canon or not, it IS canon. You can't disregard canonical sources just because you don't like them or because you're not as familiar with them or didn't grow up with them... it's still equally as valid.

But for the vast majority of Australians the G1 english version cartoon is it.

Don't forget that both the US and UK comics from Marvel were widely available in Australia and a lot of Australian fans grew up reading those comics, as evident from the number of people here who've voiced their preference for the Marvel comics.

When you talk about the Japanese series you are talking about an alternative continuity.

That doesn't make it less valid though. We have alternative continuities in Anglophone canon too, like the Earthforce Saga. But just because it's an alternative continuity doesn't make it less valid. And for anyone who prefers or grew up with watching the Japanese series, The Rebirth is an alternative continuity - it's relative. Just because the majority here are more familiar with Anglophone continuity doesn't necessarily make Anglophone continuity more (or less) correct than Japanese continuity.

Look it up on wikipedia, they're not even listed in the same article. The Japanese 'season 4' is not even Transformers G1, it's called 'Headmasters'. A separate and distinct series.

Yeah, cos wikipedia is always a reliable source </sarcasm>

Remember that G1 is a term that was coined by fans and didn't even enter official currency until 2000 (and even then only in Japan, Hasbro adopted the term several years later). Before 1993's Generation 2, everything before then was just "Transformers." Thus fans referred to everything before G2 as G1... G1 is everything before G2, including 1993's G1 (often referred to by fans as "G1.5"). Transformers The Headmasters, Super God Masterforce, Victory and Zone came out in 1987, 88, 89 and 90 respectively -- all predated 1993's Generation 2 and there thus by definition, G1.

Of course the toys are the primary product, but here we are comparing the cartoon and comics. Comics are a niche market for fans, while the TV series was mainstream for the general public.

How are the comics only for a niche market? They were written for the general public and released for the general public. I bought all of my Transformer comics during the 1980s from local newsagents, the same place where people buy newspapers... which are hardly a "niche" commodity.

Granted television is a more widely accessible medium, but I wouldn't go so far as saying that the Transformer comics - which were chock full of ads for kids like ads for breakfast cereals (Lucky Charms!), computer games, other Marvel comics and occasional community messages (like the one which tells you to tell a trusted adult if someone is touching you in a way you don't like) etc. - are for a niche market. And unlike Transformer comics today, the Marvel comics were dictated by Hasbro and stories had to be written according to the toyline. e.g. The Earthforce Saga - while it proved to be a continuity headache (and it's since been officially declared as being out-of-continuity), it was something that was written at Hasbro's bequest to market Transformers Classics. Furman didn't want to bring Optimus Prime back after killing off Powermaster Prime in US#75, but Hasbro told him to because they wanted Action Master Optimus Prime to feature in the final issue.

A lot of the most popular post-cartoon toys are ones that were popularised in the comic books, e.g. Bludgeon, Thunderwing... and characters like Zarak and Scorponok were far more memorable in the comics than he was in the cartoon. Scorponok and Fortress Maximus didn't even really have personas in the US or Japanese cartoons, they were just extensions of Zarak and Spike (although The Rebirth did give Cerebros a separate persona which neither the comics nor Japanese cartoon did ).

It's been mentioned that the Japanese series is an official Transformers product. Sure, but it's official in Japan, it was never officially broadcast in the west. And does it need to be said? We are not in Japan!

The series has been officially released in Australia on DVD though. But if we are to go by the logic of disregarding anything not released here, then we should also:
+ disregard G1 Shockwave - that toy was never released here
+ disregard the Deluxe Insecticons - also never released here
+ include Overlord - he was released here, although very rare. And the Hasbro version appeared in Last Stand of the Wreckers
+ disregard Binaltech - that line was never released here, we had Alternators but they didn't have a continuity like Binaltech did
+ disregard Alternity
+ desist discussion about Transformers Prime as that hasn't aired here

In any case, I would have thought it'd be a given we were talking about the english version continuity, not the foreign language version. Otherwise it's like if you say Galvatron was crazy in the G1 cartoon, and I reply no he wasn't because he was clever in the comics! Obviously different continuities, with different characters...you can't really bring both into the same discussion about the G1 cartoon continuity.

I wouldn't say that just because Galvatron was cool in the G1 comics, therefore it makes G1 cartoon Galvatron cool. I would say that I prefer G1 comic Galvatron because I think he's cooler than G1 Galvatron, who I think is a loser.

But even looking purely at the G1 cartoon, the Japanese series counts as the G1 cartoon because it is:
a: something that was released as Transformers prior to G2
b: an animated cartoon series

If you want to restrict discussion to Anglophone cartoon continuity only, then I think that needs to be defined from the outset. Because otherwise it's is perfectly reasonable for people to assume that the discussion is encompassing of any of G1 Rodimus Prime's canonical cartoon appearance.

Btw, I notice that your own avatar is of Rodimus Prime from the UK comics. Is that the version of Rodimus Prime that you personally prefer?

[Paulbot]

If you want to restrict discussion to Anglophone cartoon continuity only, then I think that needs to be defined from the outset.

He did by the way.

Another G1 season 3 question.

I can't see anyone thinking about the events of Headmasters as "in continuity" (which is the term that should be used in this thread rather than "canon") with the G1 cartoon, any more so than the G1 comic is "in continuity" with the cartoon.

[Gutsman Heavy]

Headmasters IS canon (oh how I hate it, but it is)
Headmasters IS NOT in the US G1 Toon continuity.

so remember children, canon =/= continuity. Transformers has alot of continuity families, all are canon, but separate universes.

Headmasters =/= US G1 Toon just as much as Beast Wars =/= Bayformers. BUT ALL ARE VALID!

[gekisou]

I can't see anyone thinking about the events of Headmasters as "in continuity" (which is the term that should be used in this thread rather than "canon") with the G1 cartoon, any more so than the G1 comic is "in continuity" with the cartoon.

Transformers in Japan had the first 3 seasons of the American version released dubbed in Japanese in that country and yes, while edited somewhat, it is still part of the G1 series and since HM is a continuation of what happened in TF 2010 (which is season 3 in the US), it technically is in THAT continuity... but yeah, I understand what you are trying to say.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Let me maybe help clear this up: TFwiki has pages for both canon and continuity.

I don't know about that... I still think it was the opening of the Cosmic MacGuffin that made him an instant hero. He didn't really travel there. And it appeared that his maturity was very much reliant on his possession of the MacGuffin, for without it he not only physically reverted into becoming Hot Rod, but psychologically too (i.e. he became less mature). This happened in both the cartoon and the comics too! Although by the end of the Great War Rodimus Prime is Hot Rod again - leader of the Autobots and prefers to be called Rodimus. I can't remember if he was still in possession of the MacGuffin, but I don't think he was. But he still possessed the wisdom and maturity of Rodimus Prime. So perhaps Rodimus finally grew up after a couple of centuries... or maybe prolonged contact with the MacGuffin slowly transformed him... yes Rodimus, it's your Matrix... your own... your precious!

I did an assignment on this back in uni, besides being about clearing the way for/selling new toys TFTM is a pretty clear example of classical Hollywood cinema model and the 'heroes journey' monomyth - which often involves a young, brash All-American male hero type overcoming obstacles and acquiring wisdom, usually by outgrowing/discarding old views and opinions as a consequence of his trials/journey. It was a while ago when I wrote it, but to give the three examples that IMO best illustrate his 'path to matoority', we have...
* "If you're gonna ride Danno, ride in style!" on Earth contrasted with Kup: "That's a ship?", Hot Rod: "Who cares, as long as it flies?" (learns to value substance over style),
* the dismissal of then successful use of the Universal Greeting (Allicons VS Junkions) (i.e. move from 'fight response' to 'diplomacy'), and
* "Don't we have anything better to do than tell old war stories?" VS "Doesn't this remind you of anything Kup?" (Hot Rod learns the value of experience/listening to your elders).
Then you get Kup's re-evaluation of 'Turbo-revvin' young punk' to 'I knew you had potential lad', and the way Hot Rod automatically takes over leadership from the de-Matrixed Ultra Magnus on the planet Junkion and selfishly involves an entire innocent race in a nigh-hopeless fight against a dark God to save his own world in the process. Of course, it is a kid's cartoon whose main point was to sell toys and so this isn't as overt as many other 'hero's journey' narratives (or rather gets lost amongst the sheer awesomeness of Unicron), but the progression is there once you look for it, and forms pretty much the main story to boot.
Basically, I submit that the 'physical maturity' (including lined face and vocals) is actually the least important aspect of Roddy's 'evolution' in TFTM, put in to sell toys visually signify the (admittedly shallow) character development he'd already undergone. The S3 cartoon, in contrast, downplays/dismisses this for narrative purpose, most notably in Burden Hardest to Bear with the 'burden of command' schtick, but even then just repeats the process with that trite 'giri' moralising. The same thing sort of happens in The Ultimate Weapon, 'cos the brain is the ultimate weapon doncha know.
But then, the S3 cartoon makes Grimlock comic relief, and Galvatron an omnicidal nutcase, and has Unicron created by a puny monkey, so yeah...

[kup]

Whatchoo mean? I'd miss BayPrime more than Rodimus. That face stealing, Decepticon executing son of a null ray is a way more ruthless and effective leader than mister everybody hates me Rodimus.

I mean that there is so little development of any of the Bay TFs that nobody would really care if they are gone.

They killed Prime - Meh
They killed Megatron - Meh
They Permakilled Jazz -Meh
They Permakilled Arcee - Meh

And on and on. It's not that they are good or if they are bad characters it's mostly that we know next to nothing about them in order to care if they are killed or not.

[SkyWarp91]

Aw I thought Squeezeplay was a G2 toy!

[Lord_Zed]

Rodimus Prime could be quite ruthless in the G1 comics - right down to executing a defeated Decepticon. Shanghai'd!

I'd forgotten that, although I should have been more clear my criticism was of Cartoon continuity Rodimus. I guess the burden got to him in the comics. Although its kind of telling that Rodimus compassion faltered after leading the autobots through a few years of war with the Decepticons, while Optimus endured for millennium and was still able to maintain his beliefs.

I mean that there is so little development of any of the Bay TFs that nobody would really care if they are gone.

They killed Prime - Meh
They killed Megatron - Meh
They Permakilled Jazz -Meh
They Permakilled Arcee - Meh

And on and on. It's not that they are good or if they are bad characters it's mostly that we know next to nothing about them in order to care if they are killed or not.

True dat, though its hardly anything new on the Transformers front. When I was a kid and watched the animated movie, they killed of all the characters I cared about, and introduced a whole new bunch to sell toys, I certainly didn't bat an eyelid when Kup got broke or Ultra Magnus got terminated halfway through the movie.

And the same with Rodimus in the cartoon even after he got some cartoon time, never resonated with me. it took the comic to make Rodimus actually a character worth caring about, in fact with the exception of Optimus Bumblebee and a few others its took the comic to make most characters worth caring about.

[jimoinj]

Okay, Goktimus, I admit I didn't specify the G1 english version of the cartoon. I had assumed that was for an english speaking country's board was a given. I did specify season 3, which I don't think anyone is saying Headmasters is. So when I said it's not canon, I of course meant in terms of the G1 english version of the series, not the Japanese version.

And yeah I do prefer the Rodimus Prime from the comics, he was a more consistently written character, though not necessarily a much better leader.

Anyway, hope that marks the end of this philosophical debate about all things being equal!