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Slightly off topic, I've gotta say it really was lame how Rodimus reverted back to Hot Rod whenever he lost the matrix. So all Rodimus is is a matrix-powered Hot Rod, there was no real growing up at all! In the comics as well. I don't think that plot device works well.
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Agreed. It didn't make sense. I mean, Optimus Prime was STILL Optimus Prime, with or without the Matrix. He didn't revert to someone else. That itself made no sense.
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Orion Pax was rebuilt as Prime though. Hot Rod just got a powerup (like Mario getting a mushroom) so it always made some sense to me.
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Yeah I agree. Rodimus' maturity was really achieved by his contact with the Cosmic MacGuffin that is the Matrix.Originally Posted by jimoinj
Odie: Hot Rod's journey in TFTM didn't have any lasting effect on the character in making him actually mature. At best he may have had 'moments of enlightenment', but did those moments actually mature him? Because if they did then we should see the character taking forward steps as he develops. The problem I see is that, as jimoinj said, there's no real growing up at all. Whenever Rodimus Prime loses possession of the Cosmic MacGuffin, he reverts back to being Hot Rod again -- and not just in a physical sense, but his persona becomes Hot Rod too; i.e. he becomes more relatively immature than he was before.
When a character matures, they're not meant to go backwards unless there's some kind of experience that makes them take that path (e.g. Darth Vader reverting back to being Anakin Skywalker again). I like how Paulbot described the MacGuffin as like a Power Up mushroom in Super Mario.
You compare Rodimus say with Frodo Baggins. His contact with the One Ring and his journey to deliver the Ring to Mount Doom in Mordor drastically changed him as a character. But once the Ring was destroyed, Frodo did not revert back to being his happy go-lucky cheery old self, not even after he returned to the Shire. He tried to get his old life back living in Bag End, but it just didn't work -- thus the Elves took him and Bilbo to the Grey Havens to look after them... for they had irreversibly changed.
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This is funeven if it will probably end up as an 'agree to disagree' thing, and is on topic to boot!
I like the Mushroom analogy too, nice one Pauly.The thing is, by narrative standards (especially for something as shallow as TFTM/S3) those 'moments of enlightenment' are the indicators to his maturity. They're how his maturity is signified, they are his 'forward steps', in classical narrative style.Yeah I agree. Rodimus' maturity was really achieved by his contact with the Cosmic MacGuffin that is the Matrix.
Odie: Hot Rod's journey in TFTM didn't have any lasting effect on the character in making him actually mature. At best he may have had 'moments of enlightenment', but did those moments actually mature him? Because if they did then we should see the character taking forward steps as he develops. The problem I see is that, as jimoinj said, there's no real growing up at all. Whenever Rodimus Prime loses possession of the Cosmic MacGuffin, he reverts back to being Hot Rod again -- and not just in a physical sense, but his persona becomes Hot Rod too; i.e. he becomes more relatively immature than he was before.
When a character matures, they're not meant to go backwards unless there's some kind of experience that makes them take that path (e.g. Darth Vader reverting back to being Anakin Skywalker again). I like how Paulbot described the MacGuffin as like a Power Up mushroom in Super Mario.
You compare Rodimus say with Frodo Baggins. His contact with the One Ring and his journey to deliver the Ring to Mount Doom in Mordor drastically changed him as a character. But once the Ring was destroyed, Frodo did not revert back to being his happy go-lucky cheery old self, not even after he returned to the Shire. He tried to get his old life back living in Bag End, but it just didn't work -- thus the Elves took him and Bilbo to the Grey Havens to look after them... for they had irreversibly changed.
You say he 'goes backwards', but I again have to disagree - all of his 'reversions' are really brief, more than a bit tokenistic (much like his maturity), and quickly reversed. IIRC, in the US S3 cartoon there's only a few occasions where Rodimus reverts back to Hot Rod. Dark Awakening is the first that springs to mind, and after an initial 'Let's Party' line Hot Rod goes back into Rodimus=Responsible mode (I have to get back the Matrix from Prime) and takes charge pretty quickly even before he gets the Matrix back. Noting that Rodimus himself isn't the most serious 'bot ("Either suffocate, or smother.") it arguably does show character progression from the barrier-ramming teenbot we see at the beginning of TFTM - in fact he seems more mature here as Hot Rod than as Rodimus. The next is Burden Hardest to Bear, where he's feeling particularly overwhelmed by the burden of command, and as Rodimus goes on a road trip to burn off steam. To 'wake up' as Hot Rod free of the weight of responsibility would have seemed like a relief under the circumstances, and his wanting to enjoy his 'freedom' (remember he only goes AWOL for a day or so after what's heavily suggested to be an extended period of heavy stress/responsibility) is still in keeping with Rodimus' 'mature-but-relaxed' personality as well as Hot Rod's - Ultra Magnus even chides him as Rodimus for not taking anything seriously on Goo in 5 Faces of Darkness. And then in Burden he gets the giri thing and gets the Matrix back because it's 'his obligation' anyway. Still matoor by S3 Rodimus standards. Next we see him in Return of Optimus Prime, where he's infected by the Hate Plague prior to and after turning back into Rodimus. Aside from noting that the Matrix is empty, there's no characterisation of Hot Rod at all - he's not even conscious when he reverts back to Hot Rod. Then in the Rebirth trilogy he gets FA individual characterisation besides racing in the Maze, which aside from a dig at Blurr (also quite in keeping with Rodimus) doesn't show any distinctive character traits. Except for 'torture me instead of Kup' in Ep 2, which isn't really definitive - the line could have believably come from just about any G1 Autobot (except maybe Tracks).
(Cartoon) Rodimus himself was pretty immature for a leader-type, and unlike LotR the TF cartoon series as a medium just doesn't have the depth or time to show lasting personality changes for him as Hot Rod, especially since by the time he does go back to being Hot Rod full time he's eclipsed by all the newtoyscharacters like Brainstorm and friends, as well as the ever-steadfast Optimus. And then the series wraps up. But from what we see, he has matured from the beginning of TFTM, even while in Hot Rod form.
Though the idea of a bunch of elves coming to take Hot Rod to the Grey Havens does have a certain charm...
"Hey Arcee, I'm young and fun again! Lets party!"
"Umm, Hot Rod...I'm bonded to Daniel now, and there's something you should know about Springer and I..."
"Slag that, I'm taking off with the elves!"
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Hmmm yeah, that's true. Even in the comics when the Quintessons took over Autobot City, Hot Rod - even with his "refound immaturity" managed to rise to the occasion.You say he 'goes backwards', but I again have to disagree - all of his 'reversions' are really brief, more than a bit tokenistic (much like his maturity
See, I'd like to dig into Rodimus here for going AWOL even for a day as that's a horrifically irresponsible thing to do, especially when you're the supreme commander-in-chief of an army... but then again, Optimus Prime did the same thing once in the G1 comics and it was none-other than Hot Rod who set events in motion that got Optimus Prime to come back to the Autobots (even if Hot Rod did bite off more than he could chew by activating that guardian robot... looks like he won't be clapping or playing the piano anytime soon after that incident!).
A cartoon series can allow for character development. Look at Cheetor and Blackarachnia. It all depends on whether or not the writers want to put in that effort -- which was seldomly done in the G1 cartoon. For the most part, Transformers in the G1 cartoon were written more as shallow one-dimensional archetypes rather than substantial characters. The Marvel comics and Beast Wars were better at treating the Transformers as characters.
Still, the G1 cartoon still had more characterisation of the Transformers than what we've seen from Michael Bay... most Transformers in the film franchise are just treated as set pieces, or as Bay puts it, Giant (Effing) Robots! Yeah okay, they're giant freaking robots, but they're "people" too... Yoda and E.T. were puppets, but they were written as characters so that the audience could relate to them! Sorry, kinda spinning off topic here... I'm sure Dark of the Moon will do better <optimistic.glint.in.eye>
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Not sure you can compare Beast Wars and G1 fairly though - G1 was a kid's cartoon, whereas Beast Wars was really a new direction for Transformers in terms of story telling and characterisation. A fairer comparison would be with other 80s cartoons like He-Man, Astro-Boy and Thundercats...
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Beast Wars was a kid's cartoon too. It's just that the writers wrote it on different levels so that adults can enjoy it too -- and G1 comic writers worked in a similar way, which is why I've always been able to go back and read the old G1 comics and they don't feel so campy and childish compared to watching G1 cartoon eps.
I think Astro-Boy was better written too - certainly loaded with all kinds of social commentaries. But then again, that's based on a comic book series and the cartoon itself was co-produced by Tezuka Osamu anyway... Transformers (including Beast Wars) ultimately is a tool for selling toys which puts a different kind of pressure on writers that they otherwise wouldn't have. e.g. being told by Hasbro when to introduce or remove certain characters from the story.
In that regard Masters of the Universe would be a more accurate comparison... but I'm not much of a MotU fan and don't remember enough about the cartoon to comment. The comics (that came with the toys) seemed to be written at a more mature level according to my vague memories of them. I've never watched Digimon, but I've heard that's a pretty well written story with a continual story arc and substantial character development. Digimon was also a cartoon created to market a product (games).
Prince Adam = crappiest secret identity ever! The guy goes pale and wears pink and white tights and suddenly people don't recognise him? Makes Clark Kent's disguise look ingenious by comparison...
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I'd be more inclined to put it down to a smaller cast, and writers who took it more 'seriously'.
I seem to recall an interview with Flint Dille where he basically says it was just a job, and quite a few recycled David Wise stories cropping up during the 80s.
Aw man, now I want to go watch the Agenda all over again and my DVDs are in another state...
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The G1 cartoon also used a larger cast from Beast Wars. While in BW they could focus on individual characters and how they interact the G1 cartoon introduced a new character every couple of episodes (roughly)
It would be hard to write deep characterisation into a series when the cast rotated between episodes.
As to Rodimus reverting to Hot Rod whenever he reliquinshed the Matrix this could have been to give him more screen time as prior to this he only appeared in the movie.
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