TF Beast Hunters episode 11 - Persuasion

[Gasaraki]

For me, it's been a long time since an episode hit the spot as much as this one... very satisfying storytelling and CHARACTER portrayals! I do agree it's still somewhat slow at times, but it does feel like it's building nicely toward the endgame.

Stuff I liked:
- A couple of memorable lines:
--- Megatron saying 'dearest Ratchet', oooh that made my hair stand :P
--- '... stuck in Knockout's trunk WITH YOUR MOM!' ... what tha!??
- I gotta get my hands on Raf's computer... he's rigged it to interface with Cybertronian tech! Plus got the right font(s) to go with it! Man!
- That music when Ratchet was shown the Nemesis' bridge really sounded like it came straight from Star Wars!
- Yep, also loved the way Megatron just deals out the truth and doesn't bother to hide any motive, seeing he's already predicted Ratchet's response.
- The suggestion of a follow-up series with Fowler's comment to Jack about his future - Agent Darby! The numerous toy characters also support this hint I think.

Why didn't they finish off the humans then land to search for remains? (they did so after destroying the first Autobot base after all). But then again, the last operation was directly supervised by Megatron, whereas this time he left it to Starscream who may have been too arrogant to second think it or even bother with a post-battle inspection. Starscream's like Doctor Evil, just walk away confident that your enemies are dead... he needs the equivalent of Scott Evil to just roll his eyes and mutter, "Idiot."

Yes, and what is it with identifying the building based on the 'E'!?!? There were 5 hangers there, and the configuration itself should've indicated something was off, not to mention Soundwave and Laserbeak had come from there... you'd think that hyper-advanced robotic beings would have something akin to GPS to confirm! This was lazy story boarding... Fowler goes out of the way to point that that the 'cons now know the location of the base... so how should they solve the problem? Paint out the E!! Wow, this was pathetic... must've been too costly to move (both for the Autobots/humans as well as the producers!).

love the way Megatron is portray in this episode ...a true leader ...how he got alot going on and more important things to worry about then how to just kill the autobots ...where as the autobot go nothing to do but just wait around for the decepticon to show up??....... And i didn't know how big he was until you see him next to a tiny ratchet ...

Definitely the best part of the episode for me as well... this is the vintage Megatron that I love and is all too often missing (and I mean in multiple continuities here). Here he is the thinking intelligent Megatron, who is also seductively charismatic. And best of all, morally complex... it wasn't simply the evil want-to-destroy-all bad guy.

[BigTransformerTrev]

love the way Megatron is portray in this episode ...a true leader ...how he got alot going on and more important things to worry about then how to just kill the autobots ...where as the autobot go nothing to do but just wait around for the decepticon to show up??....... And i didn't know how big he was until you see him next to a tiny ratchet ...

... this is the vintage Megatron that I love and is all too often missing (and I mean in multiple continuities here). Here he is the thinking intelligent Megatron, who is also seductively charismatic. And best of all, morally complex... it wasn't simply the evil want-to-destroy-all bad guy.

It's just like the 'Spotlight: Megatron" that came out a few months ago. It shows WHY this guy is the leader of an intergalactic army, rather than simply because he is the toughest. Meg's definetly the highlight for me in this episode.

This episode also confirmed for me what I said in my brief comment in the review thread for the previous episode - looks like a denumont on Cybertron is about to be upon us (I hope!).

[GoktimusPrime]

I felt this episode lagged and dragged. Ratchet is my favourite character on this show because he is a cookie cut out good guy. We all knew his decision before the options were given. Why spend so long showing off all the unrelated Decepticon tech to convince him?

Yeah, liegeprime and I were discussing this earlier today, and one thing he said that I find myself agreeing with is that the stories of this episode and the last one could've been combined into a single episode.

it was funny seeing UM and Shocky fight. The battle of the one fisted bots heheheh.

They should've just settled things with an arm wrestle.

Heh, Also glad to see they couldn't shy away from making Wheeljack a tech geek still, just like the old G1 guy was.

Yes, that was a pleasant surprise. It's also fairly in-character with his previous portrayals too instead of something that just seems completely out of the blue (like say, Animated Bulkhead being a space bridge genius!). We previously heard Wheeljack say that he modified Ultra Magnus' ship to improve its vector thrust, and we know that he was able to repair his own ship. He's not quite the "mad scientist" techno geek that G1 Wheeljack was... he's more like a "Han Solo" style mechanic. I could easily imagine him saying, "I've made a lot of special modifications myself" when referring to his old ship.

Yes, and what is it with identifying the building based on the 'E'!?!? There were 5 hangers there, and the configuration itself should've indicated something was off, not to mention Soundwave and Laserbeak had come from there... you'd think that hyper-advanced robotic beings would have something akin to GPS to confirm! This was lazy story boarding... Fowler goes out of the way to point that that the 'cons now know the location of the base... so how should they solve the problem? Paint out the E!! Wow, this was pathetic... must've been too costly to move (both for the Autobots/humans as well as the producers!).

Heh, it reminds me of what G1 writer David Wise refers to as the "Balonium Factor" which was often engaged in G1.
e.g.
+ camouflage paint that allowed 5 Autobots to look like Stunticons even though their body shapes were entirely different
+ Autobot Pretenders able to fool the Decepticons into thinking that they were actual humans, despite being 15 metres tall!
...et al.

Definitely the best part of the episode for me as well... this is the vintage Megatron that I love and is all too often missing (and I mean in multiple continuities here). Here he is the thinking intelligent Megatron, who is also seductively charismatic. And best of all, morally complex... it wasn't simply the evil want-to-destroy-all bad guy.

...G1 Megatron was pretty much the simple evil want-to-destroy/conquer it all bad guy. :/

Beast Wars Megatron was the more sophisticated villain, but in a different way from TFP Megatron in this ep. BW Megs was basically about divide and conquer -- he set his allies and enemies up against each other; similar to how the TFP Decepticons set up Predaking against the Autobots so that they would benefit no matter who won. Only that BW Megs was much more subtle about.

I find that this is a fairly unique aspect for TFP Megatron as I really can't think of any other Decepticon or Predacon leader who uses open honesty as his weapon of choice. TFP Megatron's M.O. regarding his enemies are either:
1/ If enemy is of no use, exterminate
2/ If enemy is of use, elicit compliance
e.g.
+ When battling Unicron Megatron proposed an alliance. Being a most logical suggestion, Optimus Prime grudgingly agreed.
+ When Optimus Prime reverted to being Orion Pax, Megatron used deception to maintain Orion's state of reversion and exploited his skills as an archivist.
+ Megatron arranged to have the children abducted and brought to Cybertron in order to force the Autobots to surrender their Relics.
+ Was openly honest with Ratchet to persuade him to work for him.
TFP Megatron's good at getting his enemies to give him what he wants and not just with the plain, "Do it or I'll kill you!" threat. It's more like, "Do it because you know it makes sense or have no other choice!"

But I really do like how this episode presented Ratchet with one hell of an ethical dilemma ... "can the ends justify the means?" -- as an altruist, Optimus Prime would never believe that the ends can justify the means. That's why he destroyed the Omega Lock. But as a Utilitarian, Megatron (and the Decepticons) certainly do believe that the ends justify the means; although Utilitarianism also believes that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. TFP doesn't seem to affirm if the Cybertronian population outnumbers that of humans (whereas Sentinel Prime in Dark of the Moon suggests that it does); and/or because the Decepticons view Cybertronians as a higher/superior form of life and therefore logically lower forms of life on Earth are expendable to save their own species/world. As "Philosophy and the Transformers" points out, if humans were to hypothetically discover a remote island inhabited by intelligent ants, and say if there was a way to benefit or save humanity that required harming or destroying the ants' backward civilisation -- we'd probably kill the ants.

[Gasaraki]

...G1 Megatron was pretty much the simple evil want-to-destroy/conquer it all bad guy. :/

Beast Wars Megatron was the more sophisticated villain, but in a different way from TFP Megatron in this ep. BW Megs was basically about divide and conquer -- he set his allies and enemies up against each other; similar to how the TFP Decepticons set up Predaking against the Autobots so that they would benefit no matter who won. Only that BW Megs was much more subtle about.

...

+ Megatron arranged to have the children abducted and brought to Cybertron in order to force the Autobots to surrender their Relics.

Yeah that's right, G1 Megatron was mostly not quite the type of character I respect... looking back at it several times over the years, it seems like he's really quite an idiot at times. Or he's not really really trying to beat the Autobots... perhaps because he knows deep down he won't know what to do with himself if OP is not there to fight So for me it comes down to 2 possibilities for G1 Megs - idiot or unmotivated... and since he's supposed to have Intelligence 10, it's the latter! There are some flashes of cunning brilliance now and then, as well as not so simple motivations, e.g. Megatron's Master Plan.

The 'vintages' of Megatron I particularly love are ones such as BW Megs (memory very hazy here, but that's what I remember) and more recent IDW Megs (e.g. during Chaos event). This is how, it would seem, Megatron was meant to be, and the only way he should be able to stay the leader over millions of years.

The utilitarian nature of the Decepticon way is very apparent, and this at least comes through in multiple continuities, not that it's a very hard concept to stick to for writers. I think the children thing was Starscream's initiative (but Megs had to approve of course)... I actually liked that moment as it showed Starscream at his best (and doesn't leave out the possibility of further plotting), but unfortunately only lasted that episode!!

...As "Philosophy and the Transformers" points out, if humans were to hypothetically discover a remote island inhabited by intelligent ants, and say if there was a way to benefit or save humanity that required harming or destroying the ants' backward civilisation -- we'd probably kill the ants.

That's quite a valid analogy... to save humanity, I'd have to agree. To benefit humanity?? I think we'd be surprised by the Protect the Sentient Ants lobby!

[GoktimusPrime]

#OccupyAntHill.

IMHO Beast Machines Megatron was the best embodiment of G1 Megatron's motto "peace through tyranny." I found he was actually a really interesting character in his own right -- the problem was that he was also an entirely different character from Beast Wars Megatron, even though he wasn't meant to be. But if we disregard Beast Wars, BM Megatron is a fairly interesting character IMO.

BM Megatron never saw himself as a villain (unlike BW Megs who revelled in it), but as Cybertron's salvation. He saw that Cybertron was plagued with endless millenia of conflict because people had differing opinions and independent free will. By removing free will and individuality, he would thus remove disagreeing opinions, and in doing so also remove the source of conflict and thus establish peace. Of course this peace came at the cost of liberty, replacing it with an absolute brutal singular dictatorship; but it's exactly what G1 Megatron claimed to believe in, "peace through tyranny."

[Gasaraki]

BM Megatron never saw himself as a villain (unlike BW Megs who revelled in it), but as Cybertron's salvation. He saw that Cybertron was plagued with endless millenia of conflict because people had differing opinions and independent free will. By removing free will and individuality, he would thus remove disagreeing opinions, and in doing so also remove the source of conflict and thus establish peace. Of course this peace came at the cost of liberty, replacing it with an absolute brutal singular dictatorship; but it's exactly what G1 Megatron claimed to believe in, "peace through tyranny."

I'm going to try to catch Beast Machines someday... I think the most interesting antagonists are often the ones who truly cannot see themselves as evil, but have some motive which they deem to be good. Frequently, the complexity then arrives at how such motives/ends are achieved, cf. Magneto.

This description of BM Megatron comes very close to Palpatine I think. One of the few moments in the new trilogy that gave me a spine-tingle was when he said 'At last, the Sith will rule the galaxy... and we shall have peace!'. It was like, whoa, this guy really thinks, in some ways, he's the good guy! Villains like this have it so screwed up in there it becomes fascinating!