Are we becoming jaded or more discerning as Transformer fans?

[GoktimusPrime]

With the exception of a few extremists most of the complaints that come from the fandom seem to me to be pretty valid.

^This.

We fans have been continually obsessed with Transformers for thirty years. I'd like to think that we do have some valid opinions about this franchise. Yes, there are some people who do make unreasonable and sometimes downright silly demands^suggestions, and on the other end of the scale there are some people who are far too generous in their appraisals. Your typical YouTube toy reviewer is like this... somehow every toy they review is the best thing evah and deserves three thumbs up. Reminds me of when Homer Simpson became a food critic and lost all credibility because he gave every restaurant rave reviews and was never critical or evaluative. But most fans do have reasonably valid views -- they will laud a toy that's well done, and criticise toys that aren't so good. Or more often than not, look at the pros and cons of various toys. Most Transformers aren't perfect nor complete rubbish, they tend to have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's in examining these aspects that we tend to conclude which toys are better or worse than others.

Part of what Hasbro should be doing is paying attention to fan's comments. Yes, it can be tiresome to trawl through all the noise and filter out the valid comments from the invalid ones. IMO an arguably more effective way to do it is what TakaraTOMY does and just create a series of online surveys that ask consumers specific questions about the toy, and most questions are multiple choice with some having the option to type in additional comments. You would have a set of generic questions, e.g. asking about consumer's demographics, where they bought the toy, what they thought about the price, packaging etc., then you have a set of more specific questions that's more pertinent to that actual toy. e.g. on the Masterpiece surveys include a question asking you to vote on which characters you'd like to see made as future MPs, and you can also nominate one yourself if the choice isn't there. I think that would make it a lot easier and expedient to gain feedback rather than lurking on forums and social media sights to trawl through so many comments and having to pick and choose which ones are worth paying attention to.

Examples of survey questions...
Generic→ G1 reissues→
MP Nissans→

[STL]

I think the identity of the brand is healthy thanks to the films and tv shows. Market awareness would be at an all time high, but my opinion is that the 'general retail' toylines seem to gravitate toward being exploitative rather than contributive to the health and identity of the brand. I appreciate what TT and Hasbro Asia are doing in the Masterpiece/Classicsverse space even if their pricing is a little predatory.

Completely in agreement with this. More eloquently put then I would've said.

I don't know how to answer this question... everything?

- The quality of other collector orientated toylines (Lego, Macross, Play Arts)
- The wide gap between when Hasbro/Takara tries and when it doesn't
- Space: moving into an apartment has been awesome but the limitation of space has forced me to be far more discerning compared to when I first started collecting again. When space is a premium, you need to weigh up what you have room for and what you don't. Not everything can be displayed and kept. More so when you have other hobbies like Halo Mega Bloks, Lego lines. I've had to focus and decide what I want to collect. Even when I see something at a great price (say a Marvel/DC/Game statue), it takes discipline and focus to say no.

I think that we should not label all fans that are critical of Hasbro/Toys as jaded or ungrateful as at the end of the day, even if we are adults, we are all Hasbro customers too.

While I do recognise that Hasbro have done a lot of great things for the Transformers brand that we can be thankful for, I don't think we have to prostrate ourselves before them whenever they throw us fans a bone. I also don't think it is a crime for us to demand that they do things BETTER, especially when we're buying the stuff.

Again, better than I could've said it myself.

[Lint]

Out of curiosity, and I'm not having a go at you here, I genuinely want to know, how do you grade TFs on quality? QC, or is it something else?

I don't really have a concrete checklist, I sort of pick one up and find things that either irk or delight me. Things that generally annoy me are floppy joints, cheaping out on paint apps, poor balance and poor articulation (moreso stuff that could have easily been implemented but wasn't). Things that impress me are great poseability, satisfying transformations, cool looking weapons, well integrated gimmicks, really good looking alt modes and beautiful decos. Sometimes impressing on multiple points makes me forgive major shortcomings (like Generations Rhinox's statuesque alt mode )

I can understand why some people would feel that way about movieverse Optimus from a character point of view (and it's a whole discussion topic on its own), but my point was that it seems like fans were getting upset over something that, in hindsight, is so trivial (actually, I think the flame paint job was a bigger 'controversy'), because it seems like they're resistant to change - this was in the context of every new series seemingly being Optimus vs. Megatron. Then again, it may be, as has been suggested, that the most vocal fans online are the ones who do a lot of complaining, and there may be a 'silent majority' who are more optimistic or have adopted a 'wait-and-see' attitude.

The flames are not only easy to pick on but are a good metaphor for how the movieverse is treating the brand. You can sort of imagine a bunch of people sitting in a boardroom brainstorming ways to make the Transformers brand more exciting then some guy suggests "you know whats sexy? Flames are sexy" then the one in charge is like "Flames?! Thats brilliant Anderson! Betsy, send this note to the design team right away!"

Even more telling is the way they just pick up a bunch of Transformer names and assign them to soulless throwaway characters they have just 'created' to fill certain visual setpieces or participate in scripted 'scenes' instead of leveraging off characters that have been developed in existing fiction. The first movie wasn't too bad, but it just escalated from there. Think Dino, Sideswipe, Twins, Shockwave, Que heck theres probably a bunch more I've forgotten. Some of these guys a really great characters in other fiction (and are fleshed out much better in movieverse comics) but none of this makes it into the movieverse films. None.

Given past behaviours, I really can't be optimistic at all about the upcoming movie. If it turns out to be a fantastic film then great but at the moment all I'm hoping for is for it to not be horrible and maybe get some good toys out of it down the line.

[requiemau88]

As a fan who is in his mid 20's I grew up watching a mix of G1 (with Cybertron cube on cheez TV) and beast wars at the same time, for me transformers has always been an evolving concept, case in point I usually put away an older line when I need space for a new. I've grown up with transformers (particularly the cartoons) as a constant in my life, I genuinely don't look at the last couple of series and compare them, I just enjoy them as they come. But don't get me wrong, some fiction I enjoy more then others.

As a person I am generally an optimistic bloke, and that transfers to most aspects of my life, however I have noticed that the older I get (more life experience) I do start to lose appreciation for some things. My biggest concern at the moment is that I have bought all that I can, not because of money issues (not including importing or filling in the gaps shopping online) but when I go to a store and look for TF's, nothing is new. For longest time this started to annoy me until my partner pointed out "of course there's nothing for you, every time a new wave comes in you buy every single figure". Years ago when I started working I could only picked up one or two, yet in comparison one point last year I had to go grab a trolley when the generations line came in and I managed to get the combiners and ultra magnus wave in one hit, and I didn't even blink an eye at the price. I've come to be annoyed at the stupidest at things, it was an eye opener for, and sometimes I still get a little annoyed.

So that was my little bit ... Now for the questions

What is your current opinion of the current state of Transformers in all its myriad forms?

Its only going to get better, and that's not to say its not good now, but realistically companies are starting to look at quality instead of quantity. I look at upcoming movie and think " this is going be be good ", I look forward to Dark Cybertron (I only buy trades), the toys are coming out look awesome, it will be my mission to find all the dinobots as well as more generations. The cartoon? I look forward to it as will hopefully build on an exsisting universe and be able to branch out introduce 'fringe' characters to a new audience.

What do you believe has influenced your current opinion of the Transformers brand? (age, experience etc)

I think the toy line is still the main thing that influences me with regards to transformers. I may be 25, have a stress full job, mortgage, car repayments, credit card debt and bills, but I still take time (every day I'm home) and I still play with my toys, I could be watching a movie and I'll go grab a toy and just play with it. Can't tell you why I still do it, I just do.

Do you believe that either you yourself, or the fanbase taken as a whole, has become somewhat ungrateful and jaded, unable to appreciate just how great things have become for TF fans? Or do you believe that it is simply as the brand has evolved, the fanbase and its expectations have evolved, and after 30 years we should expect a higher level of product - be that toy or media - as a natural matter of course?

Myself jaded? Getting there, fan base, too general a question. Some die hard g1'ers are happy as hell at the moment due to the masterpiece and generations, yet a few years ago they were jumping up and down. There's a few comic people who are quite happy due Regeneration and MTMTE. I think quite a bit of noise is coming from the Beast Hunters line, the aligned community at people who have already written off the new 'Bayformer' movie.

With upcoming content, there's always the expectations that things are going to always get better, better toys, better shows, better comics. But honestly? I look at the majority of generations and think 'if they kept pumping out these toys I'd keep buying them'. I'm not expecting any new revolutionary transforming technology. We hit that ball joints and studier plastics. MTMTE is my actual favourite comic, and not just saying that cause I'm a TF fan, I also have a decent DC and Marvel library, its entertaining to read.

Apologies if I've made mistakes, this has all been typed out on my phone (time to give my thumbs a rest)

[BigTransformerTrev]

I'm really happy this thread has provided a good discussion of the TF brand in general


What I'm hearing (to grossly simplify the last 3 pages of comments) is:


* Much of the negativity about TF's lives on the internet and perhaps not so much in the 'real' world, making the TF fanbase perhaps look more negative than it really is
* Age does play a part in peoples perceptions of the brand, but as well as the experience of watching the brand for 30 years, age also brings along factors (such as evaluating value for money) which kids don't really consider.
* Adults are a lot more realistic about the brand and look at it with a critical eye rather than the wide eyed optimism of youth
* There are lots of positive and negatives to be seen in all facets of the brand (movies, toys etc)
* People are pretty positive about the TF comics and cartoons that have come out in the last few years on the whole
* You can make evaluations about the fanbase but there is no sweeping generalizations that can take the entire fanbase as a whole into account
* The future of the brand is viewed relatively optimistically
* The brand has done well to cater to the old school (G1) fans as well as new fans. However it is questioned whether the current TF facets such as the movies are of a high enough quality to produce new life-long fans.
* Hasbro is viewed neither as a company which makes constant mistakes or has constant successes, but rather as a company which tries and often but certainly not always succeeds with it's treatment of the TF brand.
* The marketing of TF toys is often flawed with it's releases and is sometimes exploitative with it's pricing and constant slow decline in the size of figures provided (deluxes getting smaller etc)
* New directions for the lore would be welcome (not just 'Op vs Megs' yet again)
* Fans tend to judge a toy on their own personal criteria of what makes a good figure, though many of their opinions line up with each other
* Fans (espeically the long time fans) opinions and criticisms of figures are often valid rather than overly critical
* Australians are often not catered to with lines of figures they desire, which can lead to negativity from fans in this region of the world


Really good discussion, a lot of factors I did not consider when I first came up with the thread and in some ways has helped me re-evaluate the way I was examining my own opinion of the brand (I'm not negative - it's just that I'm an adult now!)

[Jay-Tron]

I believe adult fans easily become too fussy, jaded and nitpick everything simply because as adults we sometimes expect too much from a simple toy franchise. Us adults have our favourite time in the Transformers timeline and we can also enjoy (or not enjoy) other areas of the Transformers timeline/franchise without it corrupting what it is we love about Transformers as a whole.

For example, when the first live action TF movie came out I, like a lot of others didn't have the best opinion concerning the movie because it didn't look G1 enough or it just seemed too different to what I thought a live action Transformers movie and franchise should be and look like. But I've come to accept the live action franchise for what it is and these days am very happy that it's so none G1 in style. Simply because it being different from G1 takes nothing away from what G1 is for me. The movie franchise is its own beast and it's great for the Transformers universe.

I think being ok with different parts of the Transformers franchise going in different directions from the G1 style (ie: live action movies) will help in not becoming too jaded as a Transformer fan.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I must admit, I'm seeing a lot of chatter at the moment that is making me lean back towards the idea that a great deal of Transformer Fandom is indeed jaded to at least certain parts of the franchise.

In particular the chat I've seen on other sites and quite a bit on this one in regards to the upcoming Transformers: Devastation game vs Transformers 5.


Lots of the comments about the Devastation game go like this:
*Well it's the same makers of Dynasty Warriors and they were not great games so hopefully this is better.
*The gameplay looks pretty shallow but I'll reserve judgement
*Don't think this is going to shape up compared to the likes of FOC

These are fairly negative comments, but at the same time people are expressing opinions on what may happen. They are not definitive statements.


Now take some of the comments about Transformers 5.
*It's going to be all humans and cheap jokes
*It's going to be nothing but product placements and really crap writing
*Michael Bay is directing and the writer has done stuff like Batman and Robin. I'm not gonna go see it - it's gonna suck!

Now this is a movie that has barely begun to be written yet, yet people are making definitive statements about how it is going to be bad. They are not using words like 'probably', they are using phrases such as 'it's going to be'.


I can understand if people didn't like the last few flicks that they don't hold high hopes for the upcoming one. But bagging it out and saying that it is going to be bad two years in advance seems to be the definitive version of a jaded fan to me. I'm not looking forward to the next two years worth of seeing people bitching about a movie before it's even made.

[kurdt_the_goat]

Shouldn't be listening to anyone who mistakenly thinks it's the same makers as Dynasty Warriors, that's for sure!

[prjkt]

When it comes to the games/movies, I try to go in with no expectations - and take them on entertainment value, rather than as the core of the franchise - Rise of the Dark Spark was an exception there - having enjoyed FOC enough that it got me into collecting as an adult, I was hoping for more of the same, and I sort of got it - but the earth levels were a little disappointing and the game was a little too much of "enter area, defeat x number of waves, move on and repeat" - something I don't remember the two High Moon games having.
With Devastation I'm simple expecting to be able to run around and punch other bots, and have a fun time doing so, so the ~$35 (half what I paid for RotDS) cost I paid to order would be worth it.

Live action movies? Big explosions, giant robots and stupid action is all I come to expect nowadays, anything more is a bonus - I have the comics for storyline.

And finally the toys - sure the current CW figures aren't as complicated/poseable as some of the earlier Classics/Generations figures, but they're quicker to transform, combine and look damn cool - fiddling with releases like Kup, Galvatron and many of the bigger movie-verse figures can take a while to get between modes - something some of the target audience may struggle with...

[Paulbot]

We're living in a golden age for Masterpeice toys (more releases and more styles than we'd have predicted) but quick let's complain about each toy based on silhouette/prototype/first pics months before the toy is actually available. I don't think that's discerning, I think it's somewhere between jaded and the today's culture of get-on-the-Interent-and-judge-everything.