Are we becoming jaded or more discerning as Transformer fans?

[UltimateGalvatron]

Maybe get a mod to remove the banter and not needed comments that don't provide anything to the the question.


I think we are becoming jaded, and I think I'm one of them.
I'm getting sick of people from G1 complaining when they get all these modern MP and CHUG updates, we Unicron Trilogiers only have Universe Hot Shot, Gen Armada Starsceam and Megatron. I think it's kinda selfish, nearly every G1 Character has an updated form now. Focus on bringing back the other lines, Beast Wars/RiD/Armada/Cybertron etc
It just annoys me a bit. I mean I still by G1 CHuG and MP, but I won't more from other lines.

[GoktimusPrime]

From HasTak's POV, G1 makes more sense because adult G1 fans are the ones with disposable incomes that they can exploit. The Unicron Trilogy is only 12 years old, and even 12 years after G1 started Hasbro wasn't attempting to tap in on the G1 fandom. In fact, 1996 saw the very modest start of Beast Wars which took and its ultimately successful attempt in rescuing the franchise from extinction. Takara didn't really start seriously trying to exploit the disposable income of G1 fans until 2000 (16 years after G1 started). Because by that stage, most children of the 80s had well and truly finished their vocational training and/or tertiary studies (I was doing postgraduate studies); many had disposable incomes, and Takara started reissuing G1. But that's arguably a "lazier" form of tapping the consumer base, as it doesn't require R&Ding new products. HasTak didn't really start doing that until 2003/4 with proper adult-focused product lines like Binaltech and Masterpiece -- all as part of the 20th anniversary of G1.

And because G1 was the first, it does seem to overshadow everything else, which I agree is unfortunate. The Transformers franchise owes so much to Beast Wars. Even when we look at Generations/Combiner Wars today, they're still basing these toys so much on Beast Wars innovated standards. Yet the 10th anniversary of Beast Wars was relatively low-key, and with BW commemorating its 20th anniversary next year, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot planned to celebrate that. I mean, sure, we have an MP Optimus Primal on the way, but anything else?*

But I guess that's what happens with many franchises -- the original base line which started the whole thing will always be the "metric" by which the rest of the franchise will be measured by. During the EB Games Expo my daughter got a whole bunch of the new Topps Star Wars cards. I had a look through them yesterday and there were lots of cards based on the Original Trilogy and The Force Awakens, but not a single card showcasing anything from the Prequel Trilogy. And the Hasbro booth had the new upcoming Force FX lightsabres, and they're marketing Anakin Skywalker's lightsabre as "Luke Skywalker"'s lightsabre. Yeah okay, it did belong to Luke when Obi-Wan gave it to him in Episode IV, and Luke used it during that film and in Episode V, but it was originally Anakin's lightsabre. Obi-Wan swiped it from Darth Vader after defeating him on Mustafar (thus forcing Vader to construct a new lightsabre).

But this is something else that I really liked about Beast Wars -- it gave us something really different and fresh from just another reiteration of G1. Even the Unicron Trilogy is essentially another iteration of G1. But BW did that because Hasbro (Kenner) were deliberately moving away from G1 because that line was seen as weak (after nearly dying by 1995). They wanted to distance themselves from G1 to some degree in order to allow BW to stand on its own without being dragged down by the failing G1 brand at the time. But now that G1 is popular again, Hasbro are inclined to do the complete opposite.

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P.S. *Just noticed this thread. At least the BotCon people are doing something. Interesting to see if HasTak do anything else for the more mainstream line.

P.P.S. The GenerationS line is meant to be exactly that -- plural. As in, not only Generation 1. It should be encompassing all generations of Transformers, including Beast Wars, UT etc. Having said that, it's a lot less exciting when post-G2 toys get made as Classicsverse figures because, well... the engineering with Beast Wars was already so good that there's not really all that much that current day designs can offer to improve on it that much. At least, not nearly as much as they can improve on G1. I own Generations Waspinator and Rhinox, and I personally don't think that either toy substantially improve on the originals at the same level as a G1-based Generations toy does (bear in mind that the original Rhinox was a much cheaper Deluxe Class figure). I find it easier to make a direct comparison with the two Waspinators, as they are both Deluxe Class figures -- I actually still prefer the original Waspinator over the Generations one. Okay, the Generations figure has a more show-inspired aesthetic to his robot mode, and the wing flapping gimmick is cool, but the original Waspinator has a much more solid beast mode that does a more convincing job at concealing the hands and doesn't have an unsightly gap). I also own Universe Hot Shot and Armada Hot Shot -- while I appreciate the former's improved head and shoulder articulation, the rest of the toy pretty much doesn't offer much more than the original. And of course, it's sacrificed the Mini-Con gimmick (so there's trade-off). I've seen/handled Universe Cheetor and Dinobot, and I personally felt that neither of them offered any improvement over the originals, and was happy to skip both figures.

I got Armada Unicron as soon as it came out. And there have been repaints and retools of this mould to make it look more like G1 Unicron, and that's cool, but none of those redecos offer any real/substantial improvement over that toy's design (only cosmetic/aesthetic changes), which is why I've been happy to just stick with my Armada Unicron. Besides, he's a universal singularity!

Even with MP Optimus Primal, it'll be interesting to see how much more they can improve over the new toy. I suspect that there will be a lot of 'little' improvements here and there, mostly to make the toy look and play more like the cartoon model, but I'm not expecting it to be as massive an improvement over the original as say, Masterpiece Ironhide! The original Ultra Class Optimus Primal figure already boasts 12 points of articulation. MP Bumblebee has 14 points of articulation and the MP Lambos have 16 ... so the original Ultra OP figure nearly has as much articulation as an MP anyway. So yeah, I think another thing that's not seeing the demand for updated post-G1 toys is simply the lack of a perceived need, as many post-G1 toys were reasonably well designed and haven't been outdated nearly as badly as G1.

[Lint]

we Unicron Trilogiers

Yes! I'm glad this is a thing

[Magnus]

From HasTak's POV, G1 makes more sense because adult G1 fans are the ones with disposable incomes that they can exploit. The Unicron Trilogy is only 12 years old, and even 12 years after G1 started Hasbro wasn't attempting to tap in on the G1 fandom. In fact, 1996 saw the very modest start of Beast Wars which took and its ultimately successful attempt in rescuing the franchise from extinction. Takara didn't really start seriously trying to exploit the disposable income of G1 fans until 2000 (16 years after G1 started). Because by that stage, most children of the 80s had well and truly finished their vocational training and/or tertiary studies (I was doing postgraduate studies); many had disposable incomes, and Takara started reissuing G1. But that's arguably a "lazier" form of tapping the consumer base, as it doesn't require R&Ding new products. HasTak didn't really start doing that until 2003/4 with proper adult-focused product lines like Binaltech and Masterpiece -- all as part of the 20th anniversary of G1.

And because G1 was the first, it does seem to overshadow everything else, which I agree is unfortunate. The Transformers franchise owes so much to Beast Wars. Even when we look at Generations/Combiner Wars today, they're still basing these toys so much on Beast Wars innovated standards. Yet the 10th anniversary of Beast Wars was relatively low-key, and with BW commemorating its 20th anniversary next year, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot planned to celebrate that. I mean, sure, we have an MP Optimus Primal on the way, but anything else?

But I guess that's what happens with many franchises -- the original base line which started the whole thing will always be the "metric" by which the rest of the franchise will be measured by.

You're right - the focus on G1 makes the most business sense from HasTak's point of view. It also seems to be where the majority (not all) of the fandom's focus seems to be, as well, with Masterpieces and the G1-inspired Combiner Wars getting a lot of attention (again, the older fanbase with the disposable income). Even though I'm not a big Beast Wars fan, I'm hoping it gets more attention in the next year or so, since it's, in my opinion, the best thing that happened to the franchise until the first movie came out.

The GenerationS line is meant to be exactly that -- plural. As in, not only Generation 1. It should be encompassing all generations of Transformers, including Beast Wars, UT etc. Having said that, it's a lot less exciting when post-G2 toys get made as Classicsverse figures because, well... the engineering with Beast Wars was already so good that there's not really all that much that current day designs can offer to improve on it that much. At least, not nearly as much as they can improve on G1. I own Generations Waspinator and Rhinox, and I personally don't think that either toy substantially improve on the originals at the same level as a G1-based Generations toy does (bear in mind that the original Rhinox was a much cheaper Deluxe Class figure). I find it easier to make a direct comparison with the two Waspinators, as they are both Deluxe Class figures -- I actually still prefer the original Waspinator over the Generations one. Okay, the Generations figure has a more show-inspired aesthetic to his robot mode, and the wing flapping gimmick is cool, but the original Waspinator has a much more solid beast mode that does a more convincing job at concealing the hands and doesn't have an unsightly gap). I also own Universe Hot Shot and Armada Hot Shot -- while I appreciate the former's improved head and shoulder articulation, the rest of the toy pretty much doesn't offer much more than the original. And of course, it's sacrificed the Mini-Con gimmick (so there's trade-off). I've seen/handled Universe Cheetor and Dinobot, and I personally felt that neither of them offered any improvement over the originals, and was happy to skip both figures.

I got Armada Unicron as soon as it came out. And there have been repaints and retools of this mould to make it look more like G1 Unicron, and that's cool, but none of those redecos offer any real/substantial improvement over that toy's design (only cosmetic/aesthetic changes), which is why I've been happy to just stick with my Armada Unicron. Besides, he's a universal singularity!

Even with MP Optimus Primal, it'll be interesting to see how much more they can improve over the new toy. I suspect that there will be a lot of 'little' improvements here and there, mostly to make the toy look and play more like the cartoon model, but I'm not expecting it to be as massive an improvement over the original as say, Masterpiece Ironhide! The original Ultra Class Optimus Primal figure already boasts 12 points of articulation. MP Bumblebee has 14 points of articulation and the MP Lambos have 16 ... so the original Ultra OP figure nearly has as much articulation as an MP anyway. So yeah, I think another thing that's not seeing the demand for updated post-G1 toys is simply the lack of a perceived need, as many post-G1 toys were reasonably well designed and haven't been outdated nearly as badly as G1.

I agree - I thought the idea behind the Classics/Generations and Masterpiece toylines was to give a new take on classic characters, updating them with current engineering. G1 characters would obviously get the most benefit out of re-engineering, since they were built to 1970s and 1980s standards. Therefore, new versions of characters with more recent engineering don't really get much benefit. The exception would be season 1 Beast Wars characters, with redesigns that hopefully give greater screen-accuracy and cleaner (if not better articulated) beast modes. And again, as you've already established, G1 is getting the most attention anyway, for whatever reason.

[GoktimusPrime]

The exception would be season 1 Beast Wars characters, with redesigns that hopefully give greater screen-accuracy and cleaner (if not better articulated) beast modes. And again, as you've already established, G1 is getting the most attention anyway, for whatever reason.

I don't even know if most post-G1 toys even need that. Screen-likeness was much improved in most post-G1 toys, especially Beast Wars where the animators actually used 3D scanners and used those renders as the basis for the animation models. Sure, they did embellish their models somewhat, but overall they were pretty toy-accurate. When we look at post G1, the toys mostly looked good enough for animators to simply draw fairly toy-accurate models. They didn't really need to embellish them as G1 animators did. The main exception to this would be Beast Machines, which does definitely need updates, especially for the Maximals. But we've already seen at least one BM toy get a Generations upgrade, although I personally don't think it was really that necessary (BftS Tank Drone is actually more show-accurate, and IMO the original Mega figure is still the best designed toy). But characters like Nightscream and Silverbolt desperately need better toys, and Botanica just needs to exist!

G1 toy v. screen models


BW toy v. screen models


Post-BW toy v. screen models

[Zommael]

I don't know if I've become jaded or not. I do know that when I first started collecting (around the time of tail-end RID/early Armada) there were a lot of new, exciting ideas floating around. Optimus Prime was a combiner, there were Minicons, articulation was both back (in RID) and gone again (in Armada), or in some cases used in different ways such as with Armada Hoist.

Shortly after I started collecting, the Masterpiece series launched alongside Alternators, which featured reimagined characters from the old days. Everything was very exciting and there was a lot going on. Energon appeared around the same time, which featured a whole tonne of homages to the characters I had thought since childhood were "cool" (the movie characters). Then we moved into Cybertron and it was like the lessons learned from Armada and Energon were used to take the toys to a whole new level. It was, in my opinion, a great time to be a collector.

Then the movies happened. I don't know that I feel they ruined collecting. They certainly brought a lot of new and cool ideas themselves (remember Automorph?). But they also brought a new level of nostalgia. All of the movie characters were based on G1 characters. Classics was successful, and suddenly it was like all Hasbro wanted to do was G1 homages. That's a long way from being the end of the world, but it did mean that it felt like the new and exciting ideas were slowing down. Animated breathed new life into the franchise for a while, but then it was cancelled in favour of Prime, and all I saw in the Prime toys was more G1-styled realistic cars with nothing to really grab me. I feel much the same way with the RID line today, with only the random repaints and updates in the Adventure line and the Minicon gimmick really grabbing me.

That changed with Beast Hunters. The idea of vehicles and robots with animalistic aspects wasn't a new one, but the scrapping of Transtech meant it was the first time it had really been employed as a design philosophy. Those toys did catch my eye and did grab me, and they got me back into collecting TFs full-time. Around the same time, the Generations line started to do some quite interesting things. I'd always been into Cybertronian designs and so the FOC line was very appealing to me. Then we had Thrilling 30, which instead of just updating old G1 toys and characters made a lot of efforts to reimagine them. Toys like Orion Pax, IDW Megatron, Whirl, and Rhinox really appealed to me, as did the Dinobots from AOE; I didn't see them as movie Dinobots so much as reimagined G1 Dinobots and I was happy to finally get a complete set. But again, it's the reimagining that appealed to me.

These days we're in the midst of Combiner Wars, and I have to say at first the line didn't grab me. Frankly, the torso and four limbs approach to Combiners seems to lack imagination to me, and while Scramble City is a cool approach on one level, on another it makes everything feel a bit generic. It was only after I picked up the first two CW toys that I was interested in - Optimus Prime and Armada Megatron - that my attitude changed. Quite simply I've been impressed with the level of engineering and creativity evidenced in the line. It might be based on the G1 combiners, but the new characters, chest and weapon Legends toys, and introduction of characters like Optimus Maximus and Cyclonus who originally weren't Combiners to me is very cool. I also feel like production standards are a bit higher in the line in general.

From that point of view, then, I'd say I'm discerning. I look for toys that are in some way new and different, reimagined and creative rather than just updated and nostalgic.

Where I am definitely jaded is in regards to the Masterpiece line. I feel like what it's become since it first started has devalued the line. The first 10 Masterpieces were, in my opinion, figures of the most iconic characters in the franchise. Optimus Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Grimlock, Rodimus Prime. They felt special, as updates of iconic characters with the very best in engineering and construction.

But then came MP-10, a supposedly "better" version of what to me remains the best version of the G1 leader ever. From there, it just got worse. Starscream, whose toy I felt was a fantastic reimagining of the G1 character with an awesome alternate mode, also had to have a "better" version made which was really just more Geewun. Then there was Sideswipe, who might be a fanboy favourite but is hardly more iconic than, for instance, Bumblebee. When Soundwave was released I had to roll my eyes at fans going gaga for a robot that transforms into a box - and of course there was the inevitable Soundblaster repaint. Ultra Magnus looked like it might have been a breath of fresh air but was so blocky I rejoiced when images of the Generations version were released, that I wouldn't need to buy it.

The only non-repaint figure that has fired my imagination and captured my interest in the Masterpiece line since MP-10 is Star Saber. That's not to say there are no releases I'm interested in at all, but I always end up deciding it's better to spend my money on Generations figures that immediately capture my interest than repaints of toys that are cool, but are repaints of - to me - fairly boring designs. I mean I'd be all over an Eva Prime figure, but at the expense of Generations Devastator? Not a chance.

So that's where I stand. I know what I look for in toys, and I know what I feel tired of. I'm very tired of Season 1 of G1. There are 29 other years of the franchise to draw from. I think that makes me jaded with regard to that part of the franchise, but at least I'm discerning in what I buy.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I don't know if I've become jaded or not. I do know that when I first started collecting (around the time of tail-end RID/early Armada) there were a lot of new, exciting ideas floating around. Optimus Prime was a combiner, there were Minicons, articulation was both back (in RID) and gone again (in Armada), or in some cases used in different ways such as with Armada Hoist.

Shortly after I started collecting, the Masterpiece series launched alongside Alternators, which featured reimagined characters from the old days. Everything was very exciting and there was a lot going on. Energon appeared around the same time, which featured a whole tonne of homages to the characters I had thought since childhood were "cool" (the movie characters). Then we moved into Cybertron and it was like the lessons learned from Armada and Energon were used to take the toys to a whole new level. It was, in my opinion, a great time to be a collector.

Then the movies happened. I don't know that I feel they ruined collecting. They certainly brought a lot of new and cool ideas themselves (remember Automorph?). But they also brought a new level of nostalgia. All of the movie characters were based on G1 characters. Classics was successful, and suddenly it was like all Hasbro wanted to do was G1 homages. That's a long way from being the end of the world, but it did mean that it felt like the new and exciting ideas were slowing down. Animated breathed new life into the franchise for a while, but then it was cancelled in favour of Prime, and all I saw in the Prime toys was more G1-styled realistic cars with nothing to really grab me. I feel much the same way with the RID line today, with only the random repaints and updates in the Adventure line and the Minicon gimmick really grabbing me.

That changed with Beast Hunters. The idea of vehicles and robots with animalistic aspects wasn't a new one, but the scrapping of Transtech meant it was the first time it had really been employed as a design philosophy. Those toys did catch my eye and did grab me, and they got me back into collecting TFs full-time. Around the same time, the Generations line started to do some quite interesting things. I'd always been into Cybertronian designs and so the FOC line was very appealing to me. Then we had Thrilling 30, which instead of just updating old G1 toys and characters made a lot of efforts to reimagine them. Toys like Orion Pax, IDW Megatron, Whirl, and Rhinox really appealed to me, as did the Dinobots from AOE; I didn't see them as movie Dinobots so much as reimagined G1 Dinobots and I was happy to finally get a complete set. But again, it's the reimagining that appealed to me.

These days we're in the midst of Combiner Wars, and I have to say at first the line didn't grab me. Frankly, the torso and four limbs approach to Combiners seems to lack imagination to me, and while Scramble City is a cool approach on one level, on another it makes everything feel a bit generic. It was only after I picked up the first two CW toys that I was interested in - Optimus Prime and Armada Megatron - that my attitude changed. Quite simply I've been impressed with the level of engineering and creativity evidenced in the line. It might be based on the G1 combiners, but the new characters, chest and weapon Legends toys, and introduction of characters like Optimus Maximus and Cyclonus who originally weren't Combiners to me is very cool. I also feel like production standards are a bit higher in the line in general.

From that point of view, then, I'd say I'm discerning. I look for toys that are in some way new and different, reimagined and creative rather than just updated and nostalgic.

Where I am definitely jaded is in regards to the Masterpiece line. I feel like what it's become since it first started has devalued the line. The first 10 Masterpieces were, in my opinion, figures of the most iconic characters in the franchise. Optimus Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Grimlock, Rodimus Prime. They felt special, as updates of iconic characters with the very best in engineering and construction.

But then came MP-10, a supposedly "better" version of what to me remains the best version of the G1 leader ever. From there, it just got worse. Starscream, whose toy I felt was a fantastic reimagining of the G1 character with an awesome alternate mode, also had to have a "better" version made which was really just more Geewun. Then there was Sideswipe, who might be a fanboy favourite but is hardly more iconic than, for instance, Bumblebee. When Soundwave was released I had to roll my eyes at fans going gaga for a robot that transforms into a box - and of course there was the inevitable Soundblaster repaint. Ultra Magnus looked like it might have been a breath of fresh air but was so blocky I rejoiced when images of the Generations version were released, that I wouldn't need to buy it.

The only non-repaint figure that has fired my imagination and captured my interest in the Masterpiece line since MP-10 is Star Saber. That's not to say there are no releases I'm interested in at all, but I always end up deciding it's better to spend my money on Generations figures that immediately capture my interest than repaints of toys that are cool, but are repaints of - to me - fairly boring designs. I mean I'd be all over an Eva Prime figure, but at the expense of Generations Devastator? Not a chance.

So that's where I stand. I know what I look for in toys, and I know what I feel tired of. I'm very tired of Season 1 of G1. There are 29 other years of the franchise to draw from. I think that makes me jaded with regard to that part of the franchise, but at least I'm discerning in what I buy.

That was a very interesting and well thought out post to read Zom (as well as being on topic ). Thanks for sharing

[Darksaber]

I wouldn't say i'm jaded but there is alot more to compare it to these days.

The quality of toys and even kids movies have improved immensely I mean I've seen all 4 live action movies in cinema's but if you compare them to the storyline's of other movies focused at kids it is obvious that they are lacking and that's just the times that we live in if anything we are spoilt with quality.

So in reality its not the evolution of the toys and mainstream buzz of the live action movies but the fact that the general measuring bar has been raised by it's rivals so again like i said we are spoilt by a saturated market.

Also the franchise goes through peaks and troughs in line with any company that has spanned the time that Hasbro has so they can't succeed 100% of the time.

For me my only problem is the lack of an over arching storyline to connect the universes which would allow transitions over timelines which would allow the use of various different characters. The thriving franchise does assist all of us which is proven by the various lines that are aimed at adult collectors with out the money that the movies brings in it allows us to get lines such as Masterpiece, Generations and Combiner Wars.

So while i don't hold a very high opinion of the movies i can see how they can assist with the items i'm interested in. An hopefully be able to cater to all the fans of the other generations aswell in time.

[Trent]

I think it's a great time to be a TF collector and the movies are the main contributor to this "golden age". But whether you enjoy them for their entertainment value or not, they're not good movies. Popcorn flicks at best.

Apart from 2 or 3, I've never bought any movie toys because I'm not a fan of the aesthetic. I completely understand how people would be though and the movie lines have produced some great toys.

[SMHFConvoy]

You'd have to be pretty special if you've seen all 4 of the previous movies directed by Bay, hated them and still lined up to watch number 5.

1st one still stacks up to be the best. I saw the rest *hoping* they would be better ;_;