I need to vent!

[GoktimusPrime]

RE: What Tetsuwan Convoy was saying about commuters -- you're not really obliged to socially connect with these people. I'm really talking about being in the company of friends or family and then promptly ignoring those in front of you in order to connect with your device.

I took my daughter out for dinner earlier this evening and there were a few other school aged kids there. This is basically what we saw...

* One table where the parent was on their device and completely ignoring their child who was bored to tears. He looked over at the Transformer toy on our table and found that more engaging.
* Another table where the parent had plonked a phone in front of their child and proceeded to feed the child. Reaching across the table, cutting the food up, and then putting the food into the child's mouth. This kid was still in his school uniform! Well done, Mrs Cartman.
* Yet another table where a phone was placed in front of the child and both parents spoke to each other but not the child. It was as if she was in a Cone of Silence.
We were the only table with a kid where neither the parent or child was using a device. There were a few other tables with adults only and those adults were communicating with each other, but what concerns me is what these other parents are teaching their children. That this is somehow acceptable behaviour??

Am I the only one who thinks that this is sad and pathetic? You can check your device when your kids aren't around or when they've gone to bed. When your children are right in front of you then why not enjoy their company? They grow up all too quickly so why not enjoy their childhood? Am I missing something here?!

[1AZRAEL1]

As commuters, stuff em. I enjoy my solitude without interaction with people I don't know. Most of the time. But out to dinner with friends or family, focus should be on them not electronic devices.

[Tha_Phantom]

As commuters, stuff em. I enjoy my solitude without interaction with people I don't know. Most of the time. But out to dinner with friends or family, focus should be on them not electronic devices.

Agreed. I don't care for small talk with strangers I'll never meet again. Family/friends of course is a different matter.

[Trent]

RE: What Tetsuwan Convoy was saying about commuters -- you're not really obliged to socially connect with these people. I'm really talking about being in the company of friends or family and then promptly ignoring those in front of you in order to connect with your device.

I took my daughter out for dinner earlier this evening and there were a few other school aged kids there. This is basically what we saw...

* One table where the parent was on their device and completely ignoring their child who was bored to tears. He looked over at the Transformer toy on our table and found that more engaging.
* Another table where the parent had plonked a phone in front of their child and proceeded to feed the child. Reaching across the table, cutting the food up, and then putting the food into the child's mouth. This kid was still in his school uniform! Well done, Mrs Cartman.
* Yet another table where a phone was placed in front of the child and both parents spoke to each other but not the child. It was as if she was in a Cone of Silence.
We were the only table with a kid where neither the parent or child was using a device. There were a few other tables with adults only and those adults were communicating with each other, but what concerns me is what these other parents are teaching their children. That this is somehow acceptable behaviour??

Am I the only one who thinks that this is sad and pathetic? You can check your device when your kids arn't around or when they've gone to bed. When your children are right in front of you then why not enjoy their company? They grow up all too quickly so why not enjoy their childhood? Am I missing something here?!

While I personally have strong opinions on my kid using devices at the table, Ive made a rule out of not judging others parenting styles simply because I don’t know their situation/circumstances. You know what happens when you assume?

[Raider]

You know what happens when you assume?

Oh oh I no this one! You make an ass of out of u and me

[valkyrie_76]

Oh oh I no this one! You make an ass of out of u and me

Oh you

[GoktimusPrime]

You know what happens when you assume?

I don't think that they're unreasonable assumptions though. After all, even hypotheses are all based off assumptions (which are then tested with research or experimentation).

My assumptions are based off my own experience. As someone who works with teenagers I witness the effects this on a regular basis. And at schools we are seeing an ever increasing rate of things like:
* Students refusing to stop using their phones in class. Teachers are sometimes even abused when telling students to put their phones away.
* We are unable to confiscate phones from students because parents complain
* I have taken students on trips, including overseas, where some students miss out on the marvels that I'm trying to show them because they're too busy staring at their screens
* Whenever I walk around the school during recess and lunch and I see groups of kids just using their devices and ignoring each other, I refer to these groups as "hunchbacks anonymous."
* Some medical experts have noted an increased rate of neck and upper spine issues with young people due to prolonged periods of being hunched over. Remember how our parents told us to sit with correct posture?
* Mental health: we are seeing an increased rate of kids who are have deteriorating interpersonal social skills.
* Mental health: we are seeing an increasing rate of kids with poor resilience skills. Counsellors, child psychologists and other mental health professionals are becoming increasingly inundated with cases.
* Mental health: we are seeing an increasing rate of social withdrawal from kids. At school we see this manifest in the form of school refusal, which then leads to police home liaison officers paying visits to encourage these kids to come to school, but because they're so mentally distraught we have to work out a programme for them to slowly reintegrate into society and learn how to come back to school. This is often done by having them attend school on a part time basis and then reassessing them to see if they are mentally fit to attend full time. Needless to say that this has irrevocable effects on their education as they can miss many months of lessons and assessment tasks etc.

Remember that a child's brain is still incredibly malleable and that these changes to behaviour can literally rewrite their brain's architecture. As a result we are seeing increasing rates of kids with mental health diagnoses like ADD, ODD etc. And it's not even got to do with the devices themselves but basically just not spoiling the child rotten.

There have been a few times when I have been able to speak with these parents, and in each of these instances I have found no real excuse for them to allow the child to use the device at the table. It is, really, due to the parents being lazy. One classic case was at a friend's birthday where I saw another family spoon feeding their almost 2 year old. When I spoke to them about this, the mother said, "Watch what happens when I take the phone away," and the kid just had a massive tantrum! And she admitted that it was because this is the way they had conditioned the child. He has come to not only expect access to a device when eating, but he demands it as entitlement. I asked her, "Who's in control here, you are your kid?" and she fully admitted that it was her child who has authority over her, not vice versa. And IMO herein lies the problem. Parents should have authority over their children, not the other way around. That's not to say that children shouldn't be heard or respected, of course they should, but ultimately the authority lies with the parents.

Letting a child access a device whenever or wherever s/he wants... imagine that happening with junk food? Kids like sweets. Would you let them have sweets for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Would you let them eat Maccas anytime they demanded it? And yeah, kids will kick up a stink if they don't get what they want sometimes. It happens with my kid too. The difference is that I don't allow it. Even if I think it might be appropriate, if my daughter demands something rather than politely asking then the answer is no.

But hey, my experiences are just anecdotal, so let's look at what research data is telling us.
Smartphone use linked with increase in mental illness in adolescents
Is your child addicted to mobile devices?
Study concludes that we need more data for the effects of mobile device exposure in early childhood

P.S.: As the proverb goes, "It takes a village to raise a child."

[Trent]

I don't think that they're unreasonable assumptions though. After all, even hypotheses are all based off assumptions (which are then tested with research or experimentation).

My assumptions are based off my own experience. As someone who works with teenagers I witness the effects this on a regular basis. And at schools we are seeing an ever increasing rate of things like:
* Students refusing to stop using their phones in class. Teachers are sometimes even abused when telling students to put their phones away.
* We are unable to confiscate phones from students because parents complain
* I have taken students on trips, including overseas, where some students miss out on the marvels that I'm trying to show them because they're too busy staring at their screens
* Whenever I walk around the school during recess and lunch and I see groups of kids just using their devices and ignoring each other, I refer to these groups as "hunchbacks anonymous."
* Some medical experts have noted an increased rate of neck and upper spine issues with young people due to prolonged periods of being hunched over. Remember how our parents told us to sit with correct posture?
* Mental health: we are seeing an increased rate of kids who are have deteriorating interpersonal social skills.
* Mental health: we are seeing an increasing rate of kids with poor resilience skills. Counsellors, child psychologists and other mental health professionals are becoming increasingly inundated with cases.
* Mental health: we are seeing an increasing rate of social withdrawal from kids. At school we see this manifest in the form of school refusal, which then leads to police home liaison officers paying visits to encourage these kids to come to school, but because they're so mentally distraught we have to work out a programme for them to slowly reintegrate into society and learn how to come back to school. This is often done by having them attend school on a part time basis and then reassessing them to see if they are mentally fit to attend full time. Needless to say that this has irrevocable effects on their education as they can miss many months of lessons and assessment tasks etc.

Remember that a child's brain is still incredibly malleable and that these changes to behaviour can literally rewrite their brain's architecture. As a result we are seeing increasing rates of kids with mental health diagnoses like ADD, ODD etc. And it's not even got to do with the devices themselves but basically just not spoiling the child rotten.

There have been a few times when I have been able to speak with these parents, and in each of these instances I have found no real excuse for them to allow the child to use the device at the table. It is, really, due to the parents being lazy. One classic case was at a friend's birthday where I saw another family spoon feeding their almost 2 year old. When I spoke to them about this, the mother said, "Watch what happens when I take the phone away," and the kid just had a massive tantrum! And she admitted that it was because this is the way they had conditioned the child. He has come to not only expect access to a device when eating, but he demands it as entitlement. I asked her, "Who's in control here, you are your kid?" and she fully admitted that it was her child who has authority over her, not vice versa. And IMO herein lies the problem. Parents should have authority over their children, not the other way around. That's not to say that children shouldn't be heard or respected, of course they should, but ultimately the authority lies with the parents.

Letting a child access a device whenever or wherever s/he wants... imagine that happening with junk food? Kids like sweets. Would you let them have sweets for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Would you let them eat Maccas anytime they demanded it? And yeah, kids will kick up a stink if they don't get what they want sometimes. It happens with my kid too. The difference is that I don't allow it. Even if I think it might be appropriate, if my daughter demands something rather than politely asking then the answer is no.

But hey, my experiences are just anecdotal, so let's look at what research data is telling us.
Smartphone use linked with increase in mental illness in adolescents
Is your child addicted to mobile devices?
Study concludes that we need more data for the effects of mobile device exposure in early childhood

P.S.: As the proverb goes, "It takes a village to raise a child."

That’s great Gok. But show me where in my previous posts I was questioning the effects of long term uncontrolled use of devices on children? What I was questioning was your judging of those parents based on witnessing one snapshot of their lives with zero context. Are you statistically likely to be right? Probably. But does that mean that you should immediately jump to the worst case conclusion? No. Because I guarantee you’re wrong about some of them. Which was my point.

[BigTransformerTrev]

When your children are right in front of you then why not enjoy their company? They grow up all too quickly so why not enjoy their childhood? Am I missing something here?!

I don't think that they're unreasonable assumptions though. After all, even hypotheses are all based off assumptions (which are then tested with research or experimentation).

My assumptions are based off my own experience. As someone who works with teenagers I witness the effects this on a regular basis. And at schools we are seeing an ever increasing rate of things like:
* Students refusing to stop using their phones in class. Teachers are sometimes even abused when telling students to put their phones away.
* We are unable to confiscate phones from students because parents complain
* I have taken students on trips, including overseas, where some students miss out on the marvels that I'm trying to show them because they're too busy staring at their screens
* Whenever I walk around the school during recess and lunch and I see groups of kids just using their devices and ignoring each other, I refer to these groups as "hunchbacks anonymous."
* Some medical experts have noted an increased rate of neck and upper spine issues with young people due to prolonged periods of being hunched over. Remember how our parents told us to sit with correct posture?
* Mental health: we are seeing an increased rate of kids who are have deteriorating interpersonal social skills.
* Mental health: we are seeing an increasing rate of kids with poor resilience skills. Counsellors, child psychologists and other mental health professionals are becoming increasingly inundated with cases.
* Mental health: we are seeing an increasing rate of social withdrawal from kids. At school we see this manifest in the form of school refusal, which then leads to police home liaison officers paying visits to encourage these kids to come to school, but because they're so mentally distraught we have to work out a programme for them to slowly reintegrate into society and learn how to come back to school. This is often done by having them attend school on a part time basis and then reassessing them to see if they are mentally fit to attend full time. Needless to say that this has irrevocable effects on their education as they can miss many months of lessons and assessment tasks etc.

Remember that a child's brain is still incredibly malleable and that these changes to behaviour can literally rewrite their brain's architecture. As a result we are seeing increasing rates of kids with mental health diagnoses like ADD, ODD etc. And it's not even got to do with the devices themselves but basically just not spoiling the child rotten.

There have been a few times when I have been able to speak with these parents, and in each of these instances I have found no real excuse for them to allow the child to use the device at the table. It is, really, due to the parents being lazy. One classic case was at a friend's birthday where I saw another family spoon feeding their almost 2 year old. When I spoke to them about this, the mother said, "Watch what happens when I take the phone away," and the kid just had a massive tantrum! And she admitted that it was because this is the way they had conditioned the child. He has come to not only expect access to a device when eating, but he demands it as entitlement. I asked her, "Who's in control here, you are your kid?" and she fully admitted that it was her child who has authority over her, not vice versa. And IMO herein lies the problem. Parents should have authority over their children, not the other way around. That's not to say that children shouldn't be heard or respected, of course they should, but ultimately the authority lies with the parents.

Letting a child access a device whenever or wherever s/he wants... imagine that happening with junk food? Kids like sweets. Would you let them have sweets for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Would you let them eat Maccas anytime they demanded it? And yeah, kids will kick up a stink if they don't get what they want sometimes. It happens with my kid too. The difference is that I don't allow it. Even if I think it might be appropriate, if my daughter demands something rather than politely asking then the answer is no.

But hey, my experiences are just anecdotal, so let's look at what research data is telling us.
Smartphone use linked with increase in mental illness in adolescents
Is your child addicted to mobile devices?
Study concludes that we need more data for the effects of mobile device exposure in early childhood

P.S.: As the proverb goes, "It takes a village to raise a child."

Errr... you wrote that second wall of text at 11am on a Sunday morning. Couldn't you have been, you know, enjoying your childs company? Taking her out to breakfast or to an art gallery or something? At that time I was in the garden with my two kids teaching them the different depths you plant various vegetable seeds, then planting out a half dozen different varieties in the vege patch.

Then after lunch we went up the back of our property for a bushwalk and some rock climbing

That’s great Gok. But show me where in my previous posts I was questioning the effects of long term uncontrolled use of devices on children? What I was questioning was your judging of those parents based on witnessing one snapshot of their lives with zero context. Are you statistically likely to be right? Probably. But does that mean that you should immediately jump to the worst case conclusion? No. Because I guarantee you’re wrong about some of them. Which was was my point.

My in-laws cop this kind of inaccurate judgement all the time because they have a daughter with top-level diabetes, the kind that requires a machine permanently attached to her to monitor her glucose levels. So whenever they are either at home or out, during meal times they both have their phones out and are checking them constantly because they are synced to the machine and they can't let her sugar levels go too high or too low otherwise it might be life threatening. But to the causal observer, it probably appears that they are checking their FB statuses rather than monitoring their daughters health who is sitting across the table.

Gok, I bet you probably did tons of stuff with your daughter over the weekend and your big post at 11am this morning was a bit of 'me' time while she was off doing her own thing. But like Trent points out, if you are only looking at a snapshot, a casual visitor to Ozformers would think that you are spending all your time online on a social site about toys rather than spending time with your child. Appearances can be deceiving can they not

[GoktimusPrime]

Errr... you wrote that second wall of text at 11am on a Sunday morning. Couldn't you have been, you know, enjoying your childs company?

She was cleaning and vacuuming her room at the time (and she's in the shower as I'm typing this).

I am willing to concede that there may be occasional exceptions... but that's the word -- exceptions. Which should be, ya know, exceptional. If this were an uncommon sight then that'd be one thing... but I'm finding that increasingly seeing kids without a device at a table in public (cos the judge told me to stop spying on people through their windows ) is becoming rare. Just the other day I walked through a food court and saw two kids eating without any devices out. They were talking to each other and enjoying each other's company! This made me feel so happy and I thought, "Good on you kids for... wait... for being normal?!" Has it come to this stage where just having regular good manners has become so uncommon that it now sticks out in my mind? Then as I walked through the rest of the food court I noticed most other kids there had devices out (I saw one other small child without a device and the father and grandmother were just sitting there having a nice chat!).

And yeah, even among my students I know that there are students with certain conditions or issues where playing on their device is easier for them than regular social interaction -- but these are a very small minority of students. Yet I still see loads of kids just sitting there like digital zombies glued to their devices -- just regular kids who don't really have to be on them. And as I said, it's even becoming a bigger problem when kids use their phones in class and refuse to put them away, becoming confrontational or even abusive when told to put their devices away.

Link: School dumps iPads and returns to paper textbooks

P.S.: The content on these screens are openly visible to all and it's certainly nothing like checking any vitals. I typically see games or videos being played. Even better when they crank the volume up despite the fact that they're in a shared public space. So sometimes even if I try to mind my own business and talk to the present company at my table, we get assaulted by the sounds of some neighbouring table's kids' devices blaring out sounds of videos and computer games. While I totally disagree with this practice, if you're gonna indulge your child like this in public, at least have the courtesy of plugging in earphones. Although it's even more irritating in cinemas as the backlight is quite distracting when I'm trying to watch a film. And during the last film I saw several other patrons complained about a group of teenagers who were talking and using their phones during the film - it wasn't just me.