Rodimus Prime as a leader

Another G1 season 3 question. Just what was with Rodimus Prime as a leader? He was chosen by the matrix, the chosen one, but by the end even he viewed himself a failure and gave up the leadership to Optimus Prime (apparently the other chosen one). Even when he met Optimus Prime as a half-dead zombie he immediately tried to hand over the matrix to him!

I get that they had him with self-belief problems. That was adding more depth to the character. But it seemed a bit extreme. Like the matrix only changed his body, but his mind remained Hot Rod, albeit depressed and overwhelmed with his responsibilities.

And how about his leadership style? He seemed to mostly rely on Ultra Magnus. Then there was that decision in 'fight or flee' to just blow up the planet, rather than let the decepticons have it. Morally indefensible, by the same logic he should also have destroyed earth. Sometimes his leadership was okay. I found his to be a very weird and inconsistent character, very disappointing after the incredible beginning in the movie. What do you guys think?

The cartoon made him into a sucky Prime as he never got over his leadership burden and all that he did all the time was moan and complain.

The Marvel comics interpretation of him was somewhat similar to the cartoon with one crucial and redeeming factor - He got over it and became a proper and dedicated leader.

The Marvel comics also made him much more interesting as he had a bit of a 'mean streak' when compared to Optimus Prime as in him being a bit more ruthless towards Decepticons like putting a bounty on Galvatron's head.

So in the cartoon, he was just a wuss who couldn't stop whining and as a result never got out of Optimus' shadow but in the Marvel comics, he became his own brand of leader.

I agree with everything kup said. Just another of many many reasons why many G1 fans prefer the comics over the cartoon. :)

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Just another of many many reasons why many G1 fans prefer the comics over the cartoon. :)

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As I read them, I'm starting to feel the same way. :o

For the short time it was in the cartoon, Ultra Magnus was a far better leader (Even if he couldn't load the Matrix properly within himself the first time :p), he was initially reluctant but did what was asked of him anyway like a proper Soldier does. :cool:
I've always felt that (Cartoon) Rodimus' constant EMOing was a direct result of him, in Spark, still only being a kid - just in grownup shoes. ;)

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

I found his to be a very weird and inconsistent character, very disappointing after the incredible beginning in the movie. What do you guys think?

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Incredible beginning in the movie? All he did was chuck Galvatron out of Unicron's bum and then tell everyone to get out.

I found the cartoon Rodimus lacking in all aspects. Especially in Headmasters, where he just runs off to space after Cybertron got blown up. LOSER. I always thought the Autobots were lucky Galvs was insane otherwise he would have wiped the floor with them.

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Originally Posted by Tetsuwan Convoy

I always thought the Autobots were lucky Galvs was insane otherwise he would have wiped the floor with them.

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+1

Regarding Rodimus' self-belief issues, I think Ultra Magnus had them as well, but as soon as he realised that he did not have to be "the leader" and could just act as a right hand man (or right hand 'bot), he did his job rather well.

Worst... leader... ever! Between him, Wheelie, Daniel and Blurr, they ruined season 3 :mad:

Ultra Magnus should have remained as the leader in Prime's absence. Afterall, he did have a little Prime in him :p

I wouldn't take the headmasters as canon. Maybe they did the bad leadership thing deliberately to lead to Optimus Prime coming back. Still, was quite an education as a kid growing up that the supposed chosen one could be so weak and childish.

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Originally Posted by 5FDP

Ultra Magnus should have remained as the leader in Prime's absence. Afterall, he did have a little Prime in him :p

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lol I like that :D

Was Optimus Prime brought back because Rodimus was failing as a leader and it was a last ditch attempt to revive the series or was it planned all along?

Rodimus never really grew up. Like a child whose parents die and is left to look after his siblings. I've never read the comic so can't comment on them. However this is worse then losing parents in a way. He was responsible for the death then had to protect his siblings constantly from a stronger version of their killer.

from that perspective i get why he was so moany all the time. It also made the transision back to Otimus Prime easier on fans because they never got as attached to Rodimus.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

I wouldn't take the headmasters as canon.

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But The Headmasters is canon. It may part of a "splinter" continuity from the US cartoon, but it is still official canon. It's as valid a continuation from Season 3/TF2010 as The Rebirth. Unless you'd rather we all disregard canons that we don't prefer... in which case I'd say a fair few of us would just disregard the G1 cartoon altogether. ;) :p But otherwise we need to be accepting of all forms of official canon regardless of our preference. IMO the G1 comic continuity is far superior to the cartoon, but I do also acknowledge the G1 cartoon's canonical validity even though I have a preference for the comics. :)

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Originally Posted by 5FDP

Ultra Magnus should have remained as the leader in Prime's absence.

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Damn straight! Ultra Magnus is a much better toy too... would've totally made more sense.

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Originally Posted by LordCyrusOmega

Was Optimus Prime brought back because Rodimus was failing as a leader and it was a last ditch attempt to revive the series or was it planned all along?

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Optimus Prime was brought back because a lot of parents complained to Hasbro when they killed Optimus Prime in Transformers The Movie. There were children weeping in some cinemas (not in my cinema though *shrug*) and some kids actually suffered from depression with at least one child locking himself in his own bedroom and going on a hunger strike.

That's why in G.I. Joe The Movie in the scene where we see Serpentor throws a cobra through Duke's chest and blood pours out of the wound -- it fully looks like Duke's dying and everyone's crying, but the dialogue has Scarlett say "He's gone into a coma." Then at the end of the movie someone radios in and says "Duke's gonna be okay," but we _never_ see Duke's recovery... this scene was never animated. This is because in the original script Duke was meant to die, and the movie was animated accordingly. After Transformers The Movie came out, Hasbro wanted to avoid making the same mistake with G.I. Joe so they literally made a last minute change where they had the voice actors re-record some lines in those two scenes to make it look like Duke went into a coma and recovered instead of dying.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...keLastGasp.jpg "T'is but a flesh wound!"

This is also why Optimus Prime will _never_ die for good in any Transformers continuity... he's basically on Hasbro's "Do Not Kill For Real" list... at least where the cartoon and movies are concerned. The G1 comics were more liberal in killing Prime off, but he was brought back whenever Hasbro released a new Optimus Prime toy, i.e. Powermaster, Action Master, G2.

Hasbro won't allow Transformer "heroes" to die on screen now... that's why it was a sure bet that when we saw Optimus Prime die in Revenge of the Fallen, that Sam would succeed in bringing him back to life. And I would be mighty surprised if Prime and Bumblebee didn't survive Dark of the Moon. They can kill "lesser heroes" like Jazz and Jetfire, but Hasbro won't let them kill "greater heroes" (i.e. heroes that kids care about and it would upset them if they died) -- lest they expose themselves to the same parental wrath of '86 ;)

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Originally Posted by LordCyrusOmega

Rodimus never really grew up.

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The problem with the transition between Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime is... well, there was no transition! The youthful and reckless Hot Rod opened a Cosmic MacGuffin and became the mature and bold Rodimus Prime (i.e. A Wizard Did It). There was no development that made Hot Rod evolve into Rodimus Prime, unlike say how Cheetor evolved from being the "boy" in Beast Wars Season 1 to becoming the budding young adult in Season 3 (and then becoming a "man" in Beast Machines).

I think that they could wipe the floor with all the TF characters in Bayformers and nobody would really give a damn - There may actually be praise :p

Did fan feedback to Rodimus Prime contribute to anyway as to why Rodimus' character was written out to be such a depressed person who didn't want leadership? Perhaps a large fraction of the fandom just wanted Optimus Prime as the Leader of the Autobots and couldn't adapt to Rodimus yet. My older brother grew up watching G1 and he hates Rodimus, I grew up post G1 era with only a VHS of the TF:Movie and didn't mind Rodimus as I never got to develop that liking to OP.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

But The Headmasters is canon. It may part of a "splinter" continuity from the US cartoon, but it is still official canon. It's as valid a continuation from Season 3/TF2010 as The Rebirth.

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I disagree. It is directly contradicted by rebirth, it is an alternative Japanese version of the G1 cartoon. If you choose to you can view it as canon, but it is just canon for the Japanese version of the cartoon, not the english version which is the one we all grew up with and watched.

Looking at the Japanese one, it doesn't even seem like the G1 cartoon. It was childish, very poorly voiced, with weird scenes and friendship power circles. Reminded me more of care bears than Transformers!

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

I disagree. It is directly contradicted by rebirth, it is an alternative Japanese version of the G1 cartoon.

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Hence why I said "splinter" in my last post. But just because it's a splinter continuity doesn't lessen its canonical validity in any way.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

If you choose to you can view it as canon, but it is just canon for the Japanese version of the cartoon, not the english version which is the one we all grew up with and watched.

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Yeah but that sounds like it's coming from your personal bias. The Japanese series IS official canon regardless of whether one grew up watching it. For example, some people didn't read the G1 comics while growing up with G1... would that lessen its canonical validity?

Basically any story written for Transformers in an official capacity with approval from Takara(TOMY) Co., Ltd or Hasbro Inc is official canon. Everyone may have their preferred canons, but that doesn't mean the less preferred ones are less canonically valid -- because preference is entirely subjective anyway. For example, I prefer the G1 comics over the G1 cartoon -- but it doesn't mean that therefore I would argue that the G1 cartoon is less canonically valid. IMO Rodimus Prime and Galvatron are suckful characters in the G1 cartoon and were much better portrayed in the Marvel Comics... but at the same time I still acknowledge the canonical validity of the G1 cartoon, as much as I may not like it as much as the comics.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Looking at the Japanese one, it doesn't even seem like the G1 cartoon. It was childish, very poorly voiced, with weird scenes and friendship power circles. Reminded me more of care bears than Transformers!

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Just because something's different doesn't make it less worthy or valid. You might not like the Japanese G1 series - fine, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I don't think it's fair to say that we should discount any continuities that we simply don't have a preference for.

Because if that's the case, a fair few people have already said that they prefer the G1 comics over the cartoon, so going by that standard perhaps we should utterly disregard the G1 cartoon and solely look at the comics.

I agree with Goktimus here.

Just becos you did not grow up with Headmasters as a child does not mean someone else did not grow up with Headmasters... I mean, I watched it first as the shitty English dub but it made me actively seek out the original Japanese language version and I really liked it a lot more than 'The Rebirth'.

That makes it as valid as the US version... unless you specifically said you only wanted this discussion to be about the US version of Rodimus, even the Manga version, who is my preference, of Rodimus Prime (Convoy) would be my fave choice.

In the manga version of TF 2010, Rodimus was actually a competant leader... still brash and more willing to jump into action than planning an attack but they showed that these instincts helped him come up with unusual methods of defeating Galvy and his troops. Rodimus Kick

Still, I agree, Rodimus never really grew into his role and the writers didn't seem to know what direction they wanted to push him towards. In fact, I thought 'Dark Awakening' was gonna be a way to get Rodimus to get over his lack of faith in himself... it did not happen and I thought 'The Burdern Hardest to Bare' would be where he finally accepted his leadership duties... then Optimus came back to live... Sigh.

The Headmasters version of Rodimus Convoy actually was mature. He planned his missions. It was like Rodimus was suddenly more confident the second time Optimus (Convoy) died. It could just the way the Japanese writers actually saw him as but that version of Rodimus near what needed to be done. And him leaving after Seibertron blew up was due in part to a passing of the torch for Fortress so I was okay with that.

With the Marvel comics... I only read the US versions so I'm a little fuzzy on the UK stuff but the one time Rodimus appeared... he WAS DEAD!!! So much for any form of good leadership... make of it what you will.

The Japanese cartoon, to me anyway, could be viewed as more relevant then the western version. It went beyond The Rebirth and developed characters more then in the western cartoon.

My only gripe is that it doesn't fit well with the Western continuity. In Headmasters Cybertron was destroyed. There for i have troubles fitting Beast Wars into this universe as it (and the subsequent Beast Machines) is set around Cybertron. While only a scene or to is set on Cybertron in Beast Wars, Beast Machines is st entirely on Cybertron.

I just set Headmasters in an alternate universe.

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Originally Posted by gekisou

Just becos you did not grow up with Headmasters as a child does not mean someone else did not grow up with Headmasters...

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Yup. I remember one time I took a Japanese Transfan to dirge's place and when he saw dirge's collection he completely ignored G1 Japanese exclusives like Lio Kaiser, Landcross etc. and went straight over to drool at Hasbro exclusive G1 toys that Japan never had like the Triggercons, 1988 Small Pretenders (e.g. Doubleheader etc), Double Targetmasters (e.g. Quickmix, Needlenose etc.) -- for dirge and I who grew up with these toys, we don't see them as anything special and most of us here would drool over stuff like Lio Kaiser, but for this Japanese dude, he saw stuff like Lio Kaiser as nothing special but Needlenose was something totally awesome to him. :)

So it's all relative depending on what we've grown up with.

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Originally Posted by gekisou

It could just the way the Japanese writers actually saw him as but that version of Rodimus near what needed to be done. And him leaving after Seibertron blew up was due in part to a passing of the torch for Fortress so I was okay with that.

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Only that he didn't pass on the torch!

Fortress: "Before you go... about that Matrix of Leadership..."
Rodimus: "BYE EVERYBODY!" *zoom*
Fortress: "That son of a glitch..."
:p

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Originally Posted by gekisou

With the Marvel comics... I only read the US versions so I'm a little fuzzy on the UK stuff but the one time Rodimus appeared... he WAS DEAD!!! So much for any form of good leadership... make of it what you will.

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Ah, but he didn't die in vain. He left an impressive legacy by teaching the humans how to fight against Decepticons using guerilla tactics. Hence why Galvatron blasted his remains crucified on the remains of the World Trade Centre twin towers (heh, that already makes it an alternate future :p) in frustration at the fact that even in death, Rodimus Prime continued to thwart him.

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Originally Posted by LordCyrusOmega

The Japanese cartoon, to me anyway, could be viewed as more relevant then the western version. It went beyond The Rebirth and developed characters more then in the western cartoon.

My only gripe is that it doesn't fit well with the Western continuity. In Headmasters Cybertron was destroyed. There for i have troubles fitting Beast Wars into this universe as it (and the subsequent Beast Machines) is set around Cybertron. While only a scene or to is set on Cybertron in Beast Wars, Beast Machines is st entirely on Cybertron.

I just set Headmasters in an alternate universe.

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There have always been multiple universes in G1 anyway, long before 1987. First we had toy continuity in the form of the toy bio and tech specs. Then we had the Marvel Comics. Then we had the Sunbow cartoon series. And we had multiple other books (like "Wheelie Wild Boy of Quintessa" where Wheelie didn't suck!). The multiversal nature of Transformers is something that's existed since the very beginning.

As for Beast Wars, it doesn't actually follow on from any single G1 continuity... at times it references the G1 cartoon (e.g. Starscream's immortal spark), but at other times it references the G1 comics (e.g. Primus). And Ravage was based off toy continuity (Ben Yee gave DiTillio and Forward a copy of Ravage's G1 tech specs, hence why he's credited as "Story Consultant" in the credits! :p) -- and Ravage only ever spoke in robot mode in the comics (in the cartoon he only growled, but could speak via Soundwave in cassette mode). So Beast Wars really follows on from the "G1" (and G2) 'continuity family' rather than any single specific continuity. This is really because BW writers looked at several different G1 sources and treated them as a single entity.

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Originally Posted by gekisou

I watched it first as the shitty English dub but it made me actively seek out the original Japanese language version and I really liked it a lot more than 'The Rebirth'.

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Oh man I am SO with you on the Japanese voice actors for Headmasters! :cool:
IMO, Banjō Ginga's voice for Scorponok was absolutely AWESOME! - His voice made Orson Welles sound like an old fart! :p:D

Banjō Ginga as Scorponok = Evil! http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/...BFAHornsUp.jpg

Orson Welles was a very old fart when he recorded the voice for Unicron. He often had to come in and out of recordings in a wheelchair. And of course, he passed away before the movie came out. There's an urban legend that Welles passed away before he could finish recording the final lines for Unicron and that Leonard Nimoy had to read those lines and his voice was electronically modified to sound like Unicron -- but I think that's been confirmed as being untrue. :p

I really liked Headmasters but there were a few weak points that prevented that series from being a classic for me:

-Optimus Prime dying
Yet again

-Some characters "out of character"
Rodimus all of a sudden quiting the war, Kup never fighting just sitting around in the control room complaining, Scourge and especially Cyclonus, two of the most powerful and fearsome Decepticons being turned into benny hill type bumbling henchmen and I'm not even going to mention Sixshot!:rolleyes:

-Cybertron being blown up
To me Cybertron is just as much a part of Transformers as Autobots and Decepticons are, blowing it up was a bad move IMO, and made it seem like everything, pretty much every Transformer had fought for, whether Bot or Con seem in vain.

And in the end the Headmasters themselves just weren't that cool as Transformers... I got sick of seeing Chromedrome vs Weird Wolf or Hardhead vs Skullcruncher every episode for half the season, they spent about 10 episodes building up Scorponoks arrival and he proved just as ineffective a Decepticon leader as Galvatron was. It wasn't till near the end we got to see the conflict on a much bigger scale.

But yeah Rodimus I don't mind as an Autobot, I like what IDW is doing with the character but he's a bit of a fail as a leader IMO.

I don't want to get into a fight, but I've got to say this. I think it's true that the G1 Japanese series had characters behaving in an out-of-character manner, quite inconsistent with the previous series. It felt like a separate series to me in its care-bears style also. The only thing it seemed to have in common with the original G1 series was the animation. If you like you can call it continuity, but as has been mentioned it contradicts beast wars as well as rebirth. If you do want to talk about the Japanese series as part of the G1 cartoon series continuity, then I think you would need to have also seen the original G1 series in the Japanese version and most others here should have too.

The comics are certainly a separate continuity, but when we are talking about canon I believe the G1 cartoon series and movie should come first. Just as when people talk about Star Trek or Star Wars, the movies are considered canon while comics and books are secondary. Because they are not the main product, which the G1 Transformers cartoon is.

But anyway feel free to disagree with me, just my view.

Uh no the comic book came first, May 1984. The cartoon started in September 1984.

"What's Transformers Canon?" is really an impossible question. To each their own, just be factually correct :)

No, by come first I mean first in importance.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

If you do want to talk about the Japanese series as part of the G1 cartoon series continuity, then I think you would need to have also seen the original G1 series in the Japanese version and most others here should have too.

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Err... I have seen the original American version in Japanese... that's why I remark about the inconsistencies...

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

No, by come first I mean first in importance.

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"Importance" is entirely subjective because it completely depends on our own personal values and opinions - for which we all differ.

Furthermore the primary product of Transformers is not the cartoon. It's also not the comics either. Transformers is first and foremost a toy franchise. The toys came first, then came the comics, then came the cartoon -- so really, we have:

+ Primary product: Transformer toys from Hasbro
+ Secondary product: Transformer comics from Marvel
+ Tertiary product: Transformers cartoon from Sunbow

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Originally Posted by gekisou

Err... I have seen the original American version in Japanese...

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Where Rumble is red and Frenzy is blue! :D

I'm not trying to start a FIRRIB/RIRFIB debate here... just sayin' is all. :p ;)

I grew up watching and loving the G1 cartoons. To me personally, the cartoons are really what G1 is all about. I havent read a single g1 comic and i probably never will

Having said that, I completely agree with all of what Gok has been saying in regards to what is canon and what is not. What you choose to follow or favor is your own business. But you can't just ignore the other official stories. Without going back and "quoting" what people have said in this thread, I think I read before that someone (jimoinj?) didn't like the way The Headmasters was dubbed and therefore found it inferior and didn't believe it belonged in the G1 continuity. But if you look at it backwards, japanese fans could look at the rebirth, not like the way it was dubbed coz it was in english and completely disregard it as being canon -- which in jimoinj's opinion, is the way the g1 story should follow.

However, despite me being a G1 cartoon fan and still agreeing with most (if not all) of what gok has said...

RIBFIR will always be the case for me :P (and again, like gok...not wanting to start another debate...just sayin) hehe

(again, sorry if i misquoted people -- feel free to correct me if i quoted people or phrases wrongly)

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Looking at the Japanese one, it doesn't even seem like the G1 cartoon. It was childish, very poorly voiced, with weird scenes and friendship power circles. Reminded me more of care bears than Transformers!

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Ermm, at risk of stirring the already-tempestuous pot, the US G1 cartoon wasn't really that great hey. It wasn't terrible by any means, and the voice work was mostly really good, but the Headmasters series wasn't much better or worse, especially once you take into account the Japanification. Personally I quite liked it for the most part - aside from moments like Daniel and Wheelie tricking Trypticon into falling down a ravine and Arcee = secretary it was a pretty decent addition to the TF franchise.
And the 'real men don't cry Danny' thing is just beautiful.:D

On the original topic ('toon Rodimus Prime), I'd say his 'lack of leadership' is more a result of overemphasising his insecurity to the point of Flanderisation, the relative lack of 'maturing' characterisation (though arguably the whole of TFTM is his traditional 'heroes journey', replete with learning the value of listening to his elders), the long-established nature of Optimus as 'the leader', and the general 'dumbing down' that seems to happen with the G1 'toon as the series progressed. Season 1 and the first half of season 2 were both pretty decent cartoons, but the latter half of season 2 and season 3 just seemed to get less and less, well, intelligent. Instead fo there being an occasional 'bad' episode with good ones being the norm, it became a case of the occasional gem amongst mostly average stories by 80s cartoon standards, and, well, Carnage in C-Minor. Put all those factors together and add in a belated 'Let's bring back Optimus 'cos it turns out kids care about the character as well as just buying the toys' and Roddy never stood a chance even if he was the only 'G1' TF to, well....
And then we get the Rebirth trilogy, where a whole season's worth of toys and story had to be squeezed in to 3 episodes, including an 'everything turns out OK' ending.

I find it funny that Ultra Magnus is a fairly incompetent leader by Prime standards in the animated movie, and yet when series three rolls around he's suddenly the voice of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by kup

I think that they could wipe the floor with all the TF characters in Bayformers and nobody would really give a damn - There may actually be praise :p

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Whatchoo mean? I'd miss BayPrime more than Rodimus. That face stealing, Decepticon executing son of a null ray is a way more ruthless and effective leader than mister everybody hates me Rodimus. :)

Rodimus Prime could be quite ruthless in the G1 comics - right down to executing a defeated Decepticon. Shanghai'd! :p

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

(though arguably the whole of TFTM is his traditional 'heroes journey', replete with learning the value of listening to his elders)

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I don't know about that... I still think it was the opening of the Cosmic MacGuffin that made him an instant hero. He didn't really travel there. And it appeared that his maturity was very much reliant on his possession of the MacGuffin, for without it he not only physically reverted into becoming Hot Rod, but psychologically too (i.e. he became less mature). This happened in both the cartoon and the comics too! Although by the end of the Great War Rodimus Prime is Hot Rod again - leader of the Autobots and prefers to be called Rodimus. I can't remember if he was still in possession of the MacGuffin, but I don't think he was. But he still possessed the wisdom and maturity of Rodimus Prime. So perhaps Rodimus finally grew up after a couple of centuries... or maybe prolonged contact with the MacGuffin slowly transformed him... yes Rodimus, it's your Matrix... your own... your precious! :D

Nope, it's not because I don't like the Japanese cartoon. It's because it's a separate and distinct cartoon to the english version of G1 Transformers. The characters were totally different. It didn't follow the G1 english series continuity. Fine if some of you are Japanese or prefer the Japanese cartoon, you can call it canon. But for the vast majority of Australians the G1 english version cartoon is it. When you talk about the Japanese series you are talking about an alternative continuity. Look it up on wikipedia, they're not even listed in the same article. The Japanese 'season 4' is not even Transformers G1, it's called 'Headmasters'. A separate and distinct series.

Of course the toys are the primary product, but here we are comparing the cartoon and comics. Comics are a niche market for fans, while the TV series was mainstream for the general public.

It's been mentioned that the Japanese series is an official Transformers product. Sure, but it's official in Japan, it was never officially broadcast in the west. And does it need to be said? We are not in Japan!

In any case, I would have thought it'd be a given we were talking about the english version continuity, not the foreign language version. Otherwise it's like if you say Galvatron was crazy in the G1 cartoon, and I reply no he wasn't because he was clever in the comics! Obviously different continuities, with different characters...you can't really bring both into the same discussion about the G1 cartoon continuity.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Nope, it's not because I don't like the Japanese cartoon. It's because it's a separate and distinct cartoon to the english version of G1 Transformers. The characters were totally different. It didn't follow the G1 english series continuity

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Just because it's different from what you've grown up with doesn't make it less canonically valid.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Fine if some of you are Japanese or prefer the Japanese cartoon, you can call it canon.

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It doesn't matter if one likes Japanese canon or not, it IS canon. You can't disregard canonical sources just because you don't like them or because you're not as familiar with them or didn't grow up with them... it's still equally as valid.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

But for the vast majority of Australians the G1 english version cartoon is it.

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Don't forget that both the US and UK comics from Marvel were widely available in Australia and a lot of Australian fans grew up reading those comics, as evident from the number of people here who've voiced their preference for the Marvel comics.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

When you talk about the Japanese series you are talking about an alternative continuity.

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That doesn't make it less valid though. We have alternative continuities in Anglophone canon too, like the Earthforce Saga. But just because it's an alternative continuity doesn't make it less valid. And for anyone who prefers or grew up with watching the Japanese series, The Rebirth is an alternative continuity - it's relative. Just because the majority here are more familiar with Anglophone continuity doesn't necessarily make Anglophone continuity more (or less) correct than Japanese continuity.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Look it up on wikipedia, they're not even listed in the same article. The Japanese 'season 4' is not even Transformers G1, it's called 'Headmasters'. A separate and distinct series.

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Yeah, cos wikipedia is always a reliable source </sarcasm> :p ;)

Remember that G1 is a term that was coined by fans and didn't even enter official currency until 2000 (and even then only in Japan, Hasbro adopted the term several years later). Before 1993's Generation 2, everything before then was just "Transformers." Thus fans referred to everything before G2 as G1... G1 is everything before G2, including 1993's G1 (often referred to by fans as "G1.5"). Transformers The Headmasters, Super God Masterforce, Victory and Zone came out in 1987, 88, 89 and 90 respectively -- all predated 1993's Generation 2 and there thus by definition, G1.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...acked_g1g2.jpg

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Of course the toys are the primary product, but here we are comparing the cartoon and comics. Comics are a niche market for fans, while the TV series was mainstream for the general public.

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How are the comics only for a niche market? They were written for the general public and released for the general public. I bought all of my Transformer comics during the 1980s from local newsagents, the same place where people buy newspapers... which are hardly a "niche" commodity.

Granted television is a more widely accessible medium, but I wouldn't go so far as saying that the Transformer comics - which were chock full of ads for kids like ads for breakfast cereals (Lucky Charms!), computer games, other Marvel comics and occasional community messages (like the one which tells you to tell a trusted adult if someone is touching you in a way you don't like) etc. - are for a niche market. And unlike Transformer comics today, the Marvel comics were dictated by Hasbro and stories had to be written according to the toyline. e.g. The Earthforce Saga - while it proved to be a continuity headache (and it's since been officially declared as being out-of-continuity), it was something that was written at Hasbro's bequest to market Transformers Classics. Furman didn't want to bring Optimus Prime back after killing off Powermaster Prime in US#75, but Hasbro told him to because they wanted Action Master Optimus Prime to feature in the final issue.

A lot of the most popular post-cartoon toys are ones that were popularised in the comic books, e.g. Bludgeon, Thunderwing... and characters like Zarak and Scorponok were far more memorable in the comics than he was in the cartoon. Scorponok and Fortress Maximus didn't even really have personas in the US or Japanese cartoons, they were just extensions of Zarak and Spike (although The Rebirth did give Cerebros a separate persona which neither the comics nor Japanese cartoon did :)).

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

It's been mentioned that the Japanese series is an official Transformers product. Sure, but it's official in Japan, it was never officially broadcast in the west. And does it need to be said? We are not in Japan!

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The series has been officially released in Australia on DVD though. But if we are to go by the logic of disregarding anything not released here, then we should also:
+ disregard G1 Shockwave - that toy was never released here
+ disregard the Deluxe Insecticons - also never released here
+ include Overlord - he was released here, although very rare. And the Hasbro version appeared in Last Stand of the Wreckers
+ disregard Binaltech - that line was never released here, we had Alternators but they didn't have a continuity like Binaltech did
+ disregard Alternity
+ desist discussion about Transformers Prime as that hasn't aired here

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

In any case, I would have thought it'd be a given we were talking about the english version continuity, not the foreign language version. Otherwise it's like if you say Galvatron was crazy in the G1 cartoon, and I reply no he wasn't because he was clever in the comics! Obviously different continuities, with different characters...you can't really bring both into the same discussion about the G1 cartoon continuity.

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I wouldn't say that just because Galvatron was cool in the G1 comics, therefore it makes G1 cartoon Galvatron cool. I would say that I prefer G1 comic Galvatron because I think he's cooler than G1 Galvatron, who I think is a loser.

But even looking purely at the G1 cartoon, the Japanese series counts as the G1 cartoon because it is:
a: something that was released as Transformers prior to G2
b: an animated cartoon series

If you want to restrict discussion to Anglophone cartoon continuity only, then I think that needs to be defined from the outset. Because otherwise it's is perfectly reasonable for people to assume that the discussion is encompassing of any of G1 Rodimus Prime's canonical cartoon appearance.

Btw, I notice that your own avatar is of Rodimus Prime from the UK comics. Is that the version of Rodimus Prime that you personally prefer? :)

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

If you want to restrict discussion to Anglophone cartoon continuity only, then I think that needs to be defined from the outset.

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He did by the way.

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Originally Posted by jimoinj

Another G1 season 3 question.

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I can't see anyone thinking about the events of Headmasters as "in continuity" (which is the term that should be used in this thread rather than "canon") with the G1 cartoon, any more so than the G1 comic is "in continuity" with the cartoon.

Headmasters IS canon (oh how I hate it, but it is)
Headmasters IS NOT in the US G1 Toon continuity.

so remember children, canon =/= continuity. Transformers has alot of continuity families, all are canon, but separate universes.

Headmasters =/= US G1 Toon just as much as Beast Wars =/= Bayformers. BUT ALL ARE VALID!

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I can't see anyone thinking about the events of Headmasters as "in continuity" (which is the term that should be used in this thread rather than "canon") with the G1 cartoon, any more so than the G1 comic is "in continuity" with the cartoon.

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Transformers in Japan had the first 3 seasons of the American version released dubbed in Japanese in that country and yes, while edited somewhat, it is still part of the G1 series and since HM is a continuation of what happened in TF 2010 (which is season 3 in the US), it technically is in THAT continuity... but yeah, I understand what you are trying to say.

Let me maybe help clear this up: TFwiki has pages for both canon and continuity.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I don't know about that... I still think it was the opening of the Cosmic MacGuffin that made him an instant hero. He didn't really travel there. And it appeared that his maturity was very much reliant on his possession of the MacGuffin, for without it he not only physically reverted into becoming Hot Rod, but psychologically too (i.e. he became less mature). This happened in both the cartoon and the comics too! Although by the end of the Great War Rodimus Prime is Hot Rod again - leader of the Autobots and prefers to be called Rodimus. I can't remember if he was still in possession of the MacGuffin, but I don't think he was. But he still possessed the wisdom and maturity of Rodimus Prime. So perhaps Rodimus finally grew up after a couple of centuries... or maybe prolonged contact with the MacGuffin slowly transformed him... yes Rodimus, it's your Matrix... your own... your precious! :D

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I did an assignment on this back in uni, besides being about clearing the way for/selling new toys TFTM is a pretty clear example of classical Hollywood cinema model and the 'heroes journey' monomyth - which often involves a young, brash All-American male hero type overcoming obstacles and acquiring wisdom, usually by outgrowing/discarding old views and opinions as a consequence of his trials/journey. It was a while ago when I wrote it, but to give the three examples that IMO best illustrate his 'path to matoority', we have...
* "If you're gonna ride Danno, ride in style!" on Earth contrasted with Kup: "That's a ship?", Hot Rod: "Who cares, as long as it flies?" (learns to value substance over style),
* the dismissal of then successful use of the Universal Greeting (Allicons VS Junkions) (i.e. move from 'fight response' to 'diplomacy'), and
* "Don't we have anything better to do than tell old war stories?" VS "Doesn't this remind you of anything Kup?" (Hot Rod learns the value of experience/listening to your elders).
Then you get Kup's re-evaluation of 'Turbo-revvin' young punk' to 'I knew you had potential lad', and the way Hot Rod automatically takes over leadership from the de-Matrixed Ultra Magnus on the planet Junkion and selfishly involves an entire innocent race in a nigh-hopeless fight against a dark God to save his own world in the process. Of course, it is a kid's cartoon whose main point was to sell toys and so this isn't as overt as many other 'hero's journey' narratives (or rather gets lost amongst the sheer awesomeness of Unicron), but the progression is there once you look for it, and forms pretty much the main story to boot.
Basically, I submit that the 'physical maturity' (including lined face and vocals) is actually the least important aspect of Roddy's 'evolution' in TFTM, put in to sell toys visually signify the (admittedly shallow) character development he'd already undergone. The S3 cartoon, in contrast, downplays/dismisses this for narrative purpose, most notably in Burden Hardest to Bear with the 'burden of command' schtick, but even then just repeats the process with that trite 'giri' moralising. The same thing sort of happens in The Ultimate Weapon, 'cos the brain is the ultimate weapon doncha know.
But then, the S3 cartoon makes Grimlock comic relief, and Galvatron an omnicidal nutcase, and has Unicron created by a puny monkey, so yeah...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zed

Whatchoo mean? I'd miss BayPrime more than Rodimus. That face stealing, Decepticon executing son of a null ray is a way more ruthless and effective leader than mister everybody hates me Rodimus. :)

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I mean that there is so little development of any of the Bay TFs that nobody would really care if they are gone.

They killed Prime - Meh
They killed Megatron - Meh
They Permakilled Jazz -Meh
They Permakilled Arcee - Meh

And on and on. It's not that they are good or if they are bad characters it's mostly that we know next to nothing about them in order to care if they are killed or not.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...acked_g1g2.jpg

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Aw I thought Squeezeplay was a G2 toy! :(

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Rodimus Prime could be quite ruthless in the G1 comics - right down to executing a defeated Decepticon. Shanghai'd! :p

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I'd forgotten that, although I should have been more clear my criticism was of Cartoon continuity Rodimus. I guess the burden got to him in the comics. Although its kind of telling that Rodimus compassion faltered after leading the autobots through a few years of war with the Decepticons, while Optimus endured for millennium and was still able to maintain his beliefs.

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Originally Posted by kup

I mean that there is so little development of any of the Bay TFs that nobody would really care if they are gone.

They killed Prime - Meh
They killed Megatron - Meh
They Permakilled Jazz -Meh
They Permakilled Arcee - Meh

And on and on. It's not that they are good or if they are bad characters it's mostly that we know next to nothing about them in order to care if they are killed or not.

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True dat, though its hardly anything new on the Transformers front. When I was a kid and watched the animated movie, they killed of all the characters I cared about, and introduced a whole new bunch to sell toys, I certainly didn't bat an eyelid when Kup got broke or Ultra Magnus got terminated halfway through the movie.

And the same with Rodimus in the cartoon even after he got some cartoon time, never resonated with me. it took the comic to make Rodimus actually a character worth caring about, in fact with the exception of Optimus Bumblebee and a few others its took the comic to make most characters worth caring about.

Okay, Goktimus, I admit I didn't specify the G1 english version of the cartoon. I had assumed that was for an english speaking country's board was a given. I did specify season 3, which I don't think anyone is saying Headmasters is. So when I said it's not canon, I of course meant in terms of the G1 english version of the series, not the Japanese version.

And yeah I do prefer the Rodimus Prime from the comics, he was a more consistently written character, though not necessarily a much better leader.

Anyway, hope that marks the end of this philosophical debate about all things being equal! :D