Rodimus Prime as a leader

[GoktimusPrime]

I wouldn't take the headmasters as canon.

But The Headmasters is canon. It may part of a "splinter" continuity from the US cartoon, but it is still official canon. It's as valid a continuation from Season 3/TF2010 as The Rebirth. Unless you'd rather we all disregard canons that we don't prefer... in which case I'd say a fair few of us would just disregard the G1 cartoon altogether. But otherwise we need to be accepting of all forms of official canon regardless of our preference. IMO the G1 comic continuity is far superior to the cartoon, but I do also acknowledge the G1 cartoon's canonical validity even though I have a preference for the comics.

Ultra Magnus should have remained as the leader in Prime's absence.

Damn straight! Ultra Magnus is a much better toy too... would've totally made more sense.

Was Optimus Prime brought back because Rodimus was failing as a leader and it was a last ditch attempt to revive the series or was it planned all along?

Optimus Prime was brought back because a lot of parents complained to Hasbro when they killed Optimus Prime in Transformers The Movie. There were children weeping in some cinemas (not in my cinema though *shrug*) and some kids actually suffered from depression with at least one child locking himself in his own bedroom and going on a hunger strike.

That's why in G.I. Joe The Movie in the scene where we see Serpentor throws a cobra through Duke's chest and blood pours out of the wound -- it fully looks like Duke's dying and everyone's crying, but the dialogue has Scarlett say "He's gone into a coma." Then at the end of the movie someone radios in and says "Duke's gonna be okay," but we _never_ see Duke's recovery... this scene was never animated. This is because in the original script Duke was meant to die, and the movie was animated accordingly. After Transformers The Movie came out, Hasbro wanted to avoid making the same mistake with G.I. Joe so they literally made a last minute change where they had the voice actors re-record some lines in those two scenes to make it look like Duke went into a coma and recovered instead of dying.

"T'is but a flesh wound!"

This is also why Optimus Prime will _never_ die for good in any Transformers continuity... he's basically on Hasbro's "Do Not Kill For Real" list... at least where the cartoon and movies are concerned. The G1 comics were more liberal in killing Prime off, but he was brought back whenever Hasbro released a new Optimus Prime toy, i.e. Powermaster, Action Master, G2.

Hasbro won't allow Transformer "heroes" to die on screen now... that's why it was a sure bet that when we saw Optimus Prime die in Revenge of the Fallen, that Sam would succeed in bringing him back to life. And I would be mighty surprised if Prime and Bumblebee didn't survive Dark of the Moon. They can kill "lesser heroes" like Jazz and Jetfire, but Hasbro won't let them kill "greater heroes" (i.e. heroes that kids care about and it would upset them if they died) -- lest they expose themselves to the same parental wrath of '86

Rodimus never really grew up.

The problem with the transition between Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime is... well, there was no transition! The youthful and reckless Hot Rod opened a Cosmic MacGuffin and became the mature and bold Rodimus Prime (i.e. A Wizard Did It). There was no development that made Hot Rod evolve into Rodimus Prime, unlike say how Cheetor evolved from being the "boy" in Beast Wars Season 1 to becoming the budding young adult in Season 3 (and then becoming a "man" in Beast Machines).

[kup]

I think that they could wipe the floor with all the TF characters in Bayformers and nobody would really give a damn - There may actually be praise

[SkyWarp91]

Did fan feedback to Rodimus Prime contribute to anyway as to why Rodimus' character was written out to be such a depressed person who didn't want leadership? Perhaps a large fraction of the fandom just wanted Optimus Prime as the Leader of the Autobots and couldn't adapt to Rodimus yet. My older brother grew up watching G1 and he hates Rodimus, I grew up post G1 era with only a VHS of the TF:Movie and didn't mind Rodimus as I never got to develop that liking to OP.

[jimoinj]

But The Headmasters is canon. It may part of a "splinter" continuity from the US cartoon, but it is still official canon. It's as valid a continuation from Season 3/TF2010 as The Rebirth.

I disagree. It is directly contradicted by rebirth, it is an alternative Japanese version of the G1 cartoon. If you choose to you can view it as canon, but it is just canon for the Japanese version of the cartoon, not the english version which is the one we all grew up with and watched.

Looking at the Japanese one, it doesn't even seem like the G1 cartoon. It was childish, very poorly voiced, with weird scenes and friendship power circles. Reminded me more of care bears than Transformers!

[GoktimusPrime]

I disagree. It is directly contradicted by rebirth, it is an alternative Japanese version of the G1 cartoon.

Hence why I said "splinter" in my last post. But just because it's a splinter continuity doesn't lessen its canonical validity in any way.

If you choose to you can view it as canon, but it is just canon for the Japanese version of the cartoon, not the english version which is the one we all grew up with and watched.

Yeah but that sounds like it's coming from your personal bias. The Japanese series IS official canon regardless of whether one grew up watching it. For example, some people didn't read the G1 comics while growing up with G1... would that lessen its canonical validity?

Basically any story written for Transformers in an official capacity with approval from Takara(TOMY) Co., Ltd or Hasbro Inc is official canon. Everyone may have their preferred canons, but that doesn't mean the less preferred ones are less canonically valid -- because preference is entirely subjective anyway. For example, I prefer the G1 comics over the G1 cartoon -- but it doesn't mean that therefore I would argue that the G1 cartoon is less canonically valid. IMO Rodimus Prime and Galvatron are suckful characters in the G1 cartoon and were much better portrayed in the Marvel Comics... but at the same time I still acknowledge the canonical validity of the G1 cartoon, as much as I may not like it as much as the comics.

Looking at the Japanese one, it doesn't even seem like the G1 cartoon. It was childish, very poorly voiced, with weird scenes and friendship power circles. Reminded me more of care bears than Transformers!

Just because something's different doesn't make it less worthy or valid. You might not like the Japanese G1 series - fine, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I don't think it's fair to say that we should discount any continuities that we simply don't have a preference for.

Because if that's the case, a fair few people have already said that they prefer the G1 comics over the cartoon, so going by that standard perhaps we should utterly disregard the G1 cartoon and solely look at the comics.

[gekisou]

I agree with Goktimus here.

Just becos you did not grow up with Headmasters as a child does not mean someone else did not grow up with Headmasters... I mean, I watched it first as the shitty English dub but it made me actively seek out the original Japanese language version and I really liked it a lot more than 'The Rebirth'.

That makes it as valid as the US version... unless you specifically said you only wanted this discussion to be about the US version of Rodimus, even the Manga version, who is my preference, of Rodimus Prime (Convoy) would be my fave choice.

In the manga version of TF 2010, Rodimus was actually a competant leader... still brash and more willing to jump into action than planning an attack but they showed that these instincts helped him come up with unusual methods of defeating Galvy and his troops. Rodimus Kick

Still, I agree, Rodimus never really grew into his role and the writers didn't seem to know what direction they wanted to push him towards. In fact, I thought 'Dark Awakening' was gonna be a way to get Rodimus to get over his lack of faith in himself... it did not happen and I thought 'The Burdern Hardest to Bare' would be where he finally accepted his leadership duties... then Optimus came back to live... Sigh.

The Headmasters version of Rodimus Convoy actually was mature. He planned his missions. It was like Rodimus was suddenly more confident the second time Optimus (Convoy) died. It could just the way the Japanese writers actually saw him as but that version of Rodimus near what needed to be done. And him leaving after Seibertron blew up was due in part to a passing of the torch for Fortress so I was okay with that.

With the Marvel comics... I only read the US versions so I'm a little fuzzy on the UK stuff but the one time Rodimus appeared... he WAS DEAD!!! So much for any form of good leadership... make of it what you will.

[LordCyrusOmega]

The Japanese cartoon, to me anyway, could be viewed as more relevant then the western version. It went beyond The Rebirth and developed characters more then in the western cartoon.

My only gripe is that it doesn't fit well with the Western continuity. In Headmasters Cybertron was destroyed. There for i have troubles fitting Beast Wars into this universe as it (and the subsequent Beast Machines) is set around Cybertron. While only a scene or to is set on Cybertron in Beast Wars, Beast Machines is st entirely on Cybertron.

I just set Headmasters in an alternate universe.

[GoktimusPrime]

Just becos you did not grow up with Headmasters as a child does not mean someone else did not grow up with Headmasters...

Yup. I remember one time I took a Japanese Transfan to dirge's place and when he saw dirge's collection he completely ignored G1 Japanese exclusives like Lio Kaiser, Landcross etc. and went straight over to drool at Hasbro exclusive G1 toys that Japan never had like the Triggercons, 1988 Small Pretenders (e.g. Doubleheader etc), Double Targetmasters (e.g. Quickmix, Needlenose etc.) -- for dirge and I who grew up with these toys, we don't see them as anything special and most of us here would drool over stuff like Lio Kaiser, but for this Japanese dude, he saw stuff like Lio Kaiser as nothing special but Needlenose was something totally awesome to him.

So it's all relative depending on what we've grown up with.

It could just the way the Japanese writers actually saw him as but that version of Rodimus near what needed to be done. And him leaving after Seibertron blew up was due in part to a passing of the torch for Fortress so I was okay with that.

Only that he didn't pass on the torch!

Fortress: "Before you go... about that Matrix of Leadership..."
Rodimus: "BYE EVERYBODY!" *zoom*
Fortress: "That son of a glitch..."

With the Marvel comics... I only read the US versions so I'm a little fuzzy on the UK stuff but the one time Rodimus appeared... he WAS DEAD!!! So much for any form of good leadership... make of it what you will.

Ah, but he didn't die in vain. He left an impressive legacy by teaching the humans how to fight against Decepticons using guerilla tactics. Hence why Galvatron blasted his remains crucified on the remains of the World Trade Centre twin towers (heh, that already makes it an alternate future ) in frustration at the fact that even in death, Rodimus Prime continued to thwart him.

The Japanese cartoon, to me anyway, could be viewed as more relevant then the western version. It went beyond The Rebirth and developed characters more then in the western cartoon.

My only gripe is that it doesn't fit well with the Western continuity. In Headmasters Cybertron was destroyed. There for i have troubles fitting Beast Wars into this universe as it (and the subsequent Beast Machines) is set around Cybertron. While only a scene or to is set on Cybertron in Beast Wars, Beast Machines is st entirely on Cybertron.

I just set Headmasters in an alternate universe.

There have always been multiple universes in G1 anyway, long before 1987. First we had toy continuity in the form of the toy bio and tech specs. Then we had the Marvel Comics. Then we had the Sunbow cartoon series. And we had multiple other books (like "Wheelie Wild Boy of Quintessa" where Wheelie didn't suck!). The multiversal nature of Transformers is something that's existed since the very beginning.

As for Beast Wars, it doesn't actually follow on from any single G1 continuity... at times it references the G1 cartoon (e.g. Starscream's immortal spark), but at other times it references the G1 comics (e.g. Primus). And Ravage was based off toy continuity (Ben Yee gave DiTillio and Forward a copy of Ravage's G1 tech specs, hence why he's credited as "Story Consultant" in the credits! ) -- and Ravage only ever spoke in robot mode in the comics (in the cartoon he only growled, but could speak via Soundwave in cassette mode). So Beast Wars really follows on from the "G1" (and G2) 'continuity family' rather than any single specific continuity. This is really because BW writers looked at several different G1 sources and treated them as a single entity.

[Hursticon]

I watched it first as the shitty English dub but it made me actively seek out the original Japanese language version and I really liked it a lot more than 'The Rebirth'.

Oh man I am SO with you on the Japanese voice actors for Headmasters!
IMO, Banjō Ginga's voice for Scorponok was absolutely AWESOME! - His voice made Orson Welles sound like an old fart!

Banjō Ginga as Scorponok = Evil!

[GoktimusPrime]

Orson Welles was a very old fart when he recorded the voice for Unicron. He often had to come in and out of recordings in a wheelchair. And of course, he passed away before the movie came out. There's an urban legend that Welles passed away before he could finish recording the final lines for Unicron and that Leonard Nimoy had to read those lines and his voice was electronically modified to sound like Unicron -- but I think that's been confirmed as being untrue.