The G1 Classicsverse Checklist thread!

(from here)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by griffin

Is there a list somewhere that checks off the first 3 years of TFs toys done in the Classicverse line? (to help narrow down the list of potentials)

---

Let's find out! :D I'm not going to list every version of each Classicsverse mould, so I'm just going to list one. e.g. "Classics Optimus Prime" also includes Henkei Convoy etc. - same mould.

[+] = "true" Classicsverse mould (i.e. explicitly created to fit into the line)
[+] = repaints of "true" Classicsverse moulds where it's debatable over how well they work as that new character, e.g. red Bumblebee as Cliffjumper
[/] = "faux" Classicsvese mould (i.e. non-Classicsverse mould repurposed into the line)
[-] = no Classicsverse toy available
[?] = debatable
[R] = bloody rare "True" Classicsverse mould
[R] = bloody rare redecos of "True" Classicsverse moulds
[r] = bloody rare redecos of "Faux" Classicsverse moulds

==================================

1984
[+] Optimus Prime = Yes! (Classics, Ultimate Battle, RtS)
[+] Bluestreak = Yes! (Universe)
[+] Jazz = Yes! (Universe, RtS)
[+] Hound = Yes! (Universe Legends, Universe DLX)
[+] Ironhide = Yes! (Universe)
[+] Mirage = Yes! (Classics)
[+] Prowl = Yes! (Universe, RtS)
[+] Ratchet = Yes! (Universe)
[+] Sideswipe = Yes! (Universe)
[+] Sunstreaker = Yes! (Universe)
[+] Trailbreaker = Yes! (RtS Trailcutter)
[+] Wheeljack = Yes! (Generations)
[+] Brawn = Yes! (Universe)
[+] Bumblebee = Yes! (Classics DLX, Classics Legends, Universe)
[-] Bumblejumper = No :(
[+] Cliffjumper = Yes! (Classics DLX, Henkei Legends)
[-] Gears = No :(
[r][/] Huffer = Yes (Timelines)
[+] Windcharger = Yes! (RtS)
[+] Megatron = Yes! (Classics, RtS)
[?][/] Soundwave = Maybe (if you count the Hasbro reissue)
[-] Buzzsaw = No :(
[?][/] Laserbeak = Maybe (if you count the Hasbro reissue)
[R] Frenzy = Yes (United) :/
[+] Ravage = Yes! (Universe)
[R] Rumble = Yes (United) :/
[+] Skywarp = Yes (Classics)
[+] Starscream = Yes (Classics), [?] Masterpiece
[+] Thundercracker = Yes (Timelines)

---------------------------------------------------

1985
[/] Blaster = Yes (Universe)
[+] Jetfire = Yes (Classics)
[-] Omega Supreme = No :(
[+] Grapple = Yes (RtS Grappel)
[-] Hoist = No :(
[+] Inferno = Yes (Universe)
[+] Red Alert = Yes (Generations)
[-] Skids = No :(
[+] Smokescreen = Yes (Universe)
[+] Tracks = Yes (RtS)
[+] Perceptor = Yes (RtS)
[+] Beachcomber = Yes (Univese)
[+] Cosmos = Yes (Universe)
[+] Powerglide = Yes (Universe)
[?] Seaspray = Maybe (re: Sea Spray)
[+] Warpath = Yes (Universe, Generations)
[/] Roadbuster = Yes (Universe)
[/] Whirl = Yes (Classics)
[+] Grimlock = Yes (Classics)
[-] Slag = No :(
[-] Sludge = No :(
[-] Snarl = No :(
[+] Swoop = Yes (Classics)
[-] Camshaft = No :(
[-] Downshift = Yes (as Generations Drift)^No
[-] Overdrive = No :(
[-] Powerdasher = No :(
[-] Shockwave = No :(
[+] Dirge = Yes (Timelines, Universe)
[+] Ramjet = Yes (Classics)
[+] Thrust = Yes (Timelines)
[+] Astrotrain = Yes (Classics)
[-] Blitzwing = No :(
[-] Bombshell = No :(
[-] Kickback = No :(
[-] Shrapnel = No :(
[-] Barrage = No :(
[-] Chop Shop = No :(
[-] Ransack = No :(
[-] Venom = No :(
[/] Devastator = Yes (Classics, as Constructicon Maximus)

---------------------------------------------------

1986
[-] Rodimus Prime = No :(
[+] Ultra Magnus = Yes (Classics)
[+] Wreck Gar = Yes (RtS)
[+] Blurr = Yes (Generations)
[+] Hot Rod = Yes (Classics)
[+] Kup = Yes (Generations)
[-] Broadside = No :(
[+] Sandstorm = Yes (Universe) :/
[/] Springer = Yes (Universe) :/
[-] Metroplex = No :(
[-] Sky Lynx = No :(
[-] Hubcap = No :(
[?][/] Outback = Maybe (if you count RtS Fallback)
[-] Pipes = No :(
[-] Swerve = No :(
[-] Tailgate = No :(
[+] Wheelie = Yes (Universe)
[-] Eject = No :(
[-] Ramhorn = No :(
[-] Rewind = No :(
[-] Steeljaw = No :(
[/] Superion = Yes (Universe)
[+] Silverbolt = Yes (Universe)
[/] Fireflight = Yes (Classics)
[?][/] Defensor = Maybe (if you count Universe)
[/] Blades = Yes (Universe)
[?][/] Hot Spot = Maybe (if you count Hot Zone)
[+] Galvatron = Yes (Universe)
[+] Cyclonus = Yes (Universe)
[+] Scourge = Yes (Generations)
[+] Octane = Yes (Universe Tankor)
[?] Gnaw = Maybe (if you count [R] Timelines Sharkticons)
[/] Trypticon = Yes (Classics)
[R] Runabout = Yes (Timelines, upcoming)
[R] Runamuck = Yes (Timelines, upcoming)
[?][/] Menasor = Maybe (re: Classics, intended to be Motormaster but named Menasor for legal reasons)
[+] Drag Strip = Yes (Universe)
[/] Bruticus = Yes (Universe Bruticus Maximus)
[/] Onslaught also as Universe Legends and [+] Ultra
[-] Predaking = No :(
[/] Razorclaw = Yes (Universe and[*] Timelines)
[/] Ratbat = Yes (Universe), [?] Maybe (Hasbro reissue)
[-] Reflector = No :(

---------------------------------------------------

1987
[-] Fortress Maximus = No
[-] Brainstorm = No
[-] Chromedome = No
[+] Hardhead = Yes (Universe)
[-] Highbrow = No
[-] Crosshairs = No
[-] Pointblank = No
[-] Sureshot = No
[-] Cloudraker = No
[-] Fastlane = No
[R] Punch/Counterpunch = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Doublecross = No
[-] Grotusque = No
[-] Repugnus = No
[-] Computron = No
[-] Freeway = No
[?][/] Goldbug = Maybe (if you count RtS Gold Bumblebee)
[-] Rollbar = No
[-] Searchlight = No
[-] Wideload = No
[-] Scorponok = No
[-] Apeface = No
[-] Mindwipe = No
[-] Skullcruncher = No
[-] Snapdragon = No
[r] Weirdwolf = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Misfire = No
[-] Slugslinger = No
[-] Triggerhappy = No
[-] Sixshot = No
[+] Overkill = Yes (Universe)
[-] Slugfest = No
[-] Pounce = No
[-] Wingspan = No
[-] Battletrap = No
[-] Flywheels = No
[-] Abominus = No
[/] Hun-Gurr = Yes (Universe)

---------------------------------------------------

1988
[-] Optimus Prime = No
[-] Getaway = No
[-] Joyride = No
[-] Slapdash = No
[-] Hosehead = No
[r] Nightbeat = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Siren = No
[-] Landfill = No
[-] Quickmix = No
[-] Scoop = No
[-] Catilla = No
[-] Chainclaw = No
[-] Cloudburst = No
[-] Groundbreaker = No
[-] Gunrunner = No
[-] Landmine = No
[-] Sky High = No
[-] Splashdown = No
[-] Waverider = No
[-] Quickswitch = No
[-] Backstreet = No
[-] Dogfight = No
[-] Override = No
[-] Fizzle = No
[-] Sizzle = No
[-] Guzzle = No
[-] Grand Slam = No
[-] Raindance = No
[-] Beastbox = No
[-] Squawktalk = No
[+] Darkwing = Yes (Universe Darkwind)
[R] Dreadwind = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Doubledealer = No
[-] Fangry = No
[-] Horri-Bull = No
[-] Squeezeplay = No
[-] Needlenose = No
[-] Quake = No
[-] Spinister = No
[-] Bomb-Burst = No
[-] Bugly = No
[-] Carnivac = No
[-] Finback = No
[-] Iguanus = No
[-] Roadgrabber = No
[+] Skullgrin = Yes (Generations)
[-] Snarler = No
[-] Submarauder = No
[-] Crankcase = No
[-] Ruckus = No
[-] Windsweeper = No
[-] Cindersaur = No
[-] Flamefeather = No
[-] Sparkstalker = No
[-] Piranacon = No

---------------------------------------------------

1989
[-] Bumblebee = No
[-] Grimlock = No (although Classics Grimlock does have some features that homage Pretender Grimmie)
[-] Jazz = No
[-] Doubleheader = No
[-] Longtooth = No
[-] Pincher = No
[-] Crossblades = No
[-] Vroom = No
[-] Skyhammer = No
[-] Big Shot = No
[r] Flak = Yes (Timelines Wings of Honour)
[-] Sidetrack = No
[-] Sunrunner = No
[-] High Jump = No
[-] Mudslinger = No
[-] Powertrain = No
[-] Tote = No
[-] Freewheeler = No
[-] Roadhandler = No
[-] Swindler = No
[-] Tailspin = No
[-] Fixit = No
[-] Red Hot = No
[-] Seawatch = No
[-] Stakeout = No
[-] Erector = No
[-] Overload = No (Universe Overload is meant to be AEC Overload, not G1)
[-] Hot House = No (although Hasbro Universe Powerglide looks a lot like him)
[-] Ironworks = No
[/] Countdown = Yes (Universe)
[-] Groundshaker = No
[+] Thunderwing = Yes (Generations)
[-] Starscream = No
[?] Bludgeon = Technically no, but apparently at one stage Hasbro did consider using the ROTF Bludgeon mould for Universe (it was originally intended for Unicron Trilogy) but ultimately decided to use it for ROTF
[-] Octopunch = No
[-] Stranglehold = No
[-] Monstructor = No
[-] Roadblock = No
[-] Nightflight = No
[+] Storm Cloud = Yes (Universe)
[-] Tailwind = No
[-] Whisper = No
[-] Blackjack = No
[-] Detour = No
[-] Hyperdrive = No
[-] Roadhugger = No
[-] Flattop = No
[-] Roughstuff = No
[-] Airwave = No
[-] Greasepit = No
[-] Skyhopper = No
[-] Skystalker = No

---------------------------------------------------

1990
I'm only including original Action Master characters and excluding those which are revamps of previous G1 characters (e.g. Optimus Prime, Megatron etc.); with a special exception for Thundercracker ;)
[-] Jackpot = No
[-] Kick-Off = No
[-] Mainframe = No
[-] Over-Run = No
[-] Rad = No
[-] Rollout = No
[-] Skyfall = No
[-] Sprocket = No
[-] Gusher = No
[-] Pipeline = No
[-] Retro = No
[-] Surge = No
[-] Crumble = No
[-] Groundpounder = No
[-] Neutro = No
[-] Takedown = No
[-] Blaze Master = No
[-] Eagle Eye = No
[-] Sky High = No
[/] Tread Bolt = Yes (Universe)
[-] Big Daddy = No
[-] Greaser = No
[-] Hubs = No
[-] Trip-Up = No
[-] Big Hauler = No
[-] Heavy Tread = No
[-] Hydraulic = No
[-] Slow Poke = No
[-] Oiler = No
[-] Power Run = No
[-] Roadburner = No
[-] Slide = No
[-] Strikedown = No
[-] Wheel Blaze = No
[-] Barrage = No
[-] Blastmaster = No
[-] Heave = No
[-] Missilemaster = No
[-] Moonrock = No
[-] Phaser = No
[-] Full-Barrel = No
[-] Overflow = No
[?] Axer = Maybe (if you count Axor, technically movieverse)
[r] Banzai-Tron = Yes (Timelines), [?] Maybe (if you count Banzaitron - technically movieverse)
[-] Gutcruncher = No
[-] Krok = No
[-] Treadshot = No
[-] Bombshock = No
[?] Dropshot = Maybe (if you count Universe Dropshot)
[-] Growl = No
[-] Tracer = No
[-] Barricade = No
[-] Ground Hog = No
[-] Motorhead = No
[-] Roller Force = No
[-] Blackout = No
[-] Spaceshot = No
[-] Meltdown = No
[-] Half-Track = No
[-] Direct-Hit = No
[-] Powerpunch = No
[-] Fireshot = No
[-] Vanquish = No
[-] Excavator = No
[-] Grit = No
[-] Hammer = No
[-] Knockout = No
[-] Sledge = No
[-] Stonecruncher = No
[-] Cement-Head = No
[-] Terror-Tread = No

---------------------------------------------------

1991
[-] Powerflash = No
[-] Circuit = No
[-] Rumbler = No
[-] Omega Spreem = No
[-] Windmill = No
[-] Gripper = No
[-] Flame = No
[-] Lightspeed = No
[-] Charger = No
[r] Slicer = Yes (Timelines Decepticon Slice)
[R] Thundercracker = Yes (Timelines Shattered Glass)
[r] Double Punch = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Turbo Master = No
[-] Overlord = No

---------------------------------------------------

1992
[-] Boss = No
[-] Flash = No
[-] Hurricane = No
[-] Rotorstorm = No
[R] Scorch = Yes (BotCon Turbomaster)
[r] Thunder Clash = Yes (Timelines Wings of Honour)
[-] Autobot Rescue Force "Drillhorn" = No
[-] Autobot Rescue Force "Jalgar" = No
[-] Autobot Rescue Force "Killbison" = No
[-] Autobot Rescue Force "Leozack" = No
[-] Falcon = No
[-] Skydive = No
[r] Skyquake = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Snare = No
[-] Stalker = No
[-] Talon = No
[-] "Bonecrusher" = No
[-] "Hook" = No
[-] "Long Haul" = No
[-] "Mixmaster" = No
[-] "Scavenger" = No
[-] "Scrapper" = No

---------------------------------------------------

1993 (G1)
[R] Pyro/Spark = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Deftwing = No
[-] Ironfist = No
[-] Aquafend = No
[-] Deluge = No
[-] Jetstorm = No
[-] Speedstream = No
[+] Rapido = Yes (Timelines
[-] Skram = No
[-] Turbofire = No
[-] Windbreaker = No
[R] Colossus/Clench = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Calcar = No
[-] Hawk/Eagle Eye = No
[-] Snipe/Afterburner = No
[-] Terradive = No
[-] Tornado/Windrazor = No
[-] Aquablast = No
[-] Drench = No
[-] Hydradread = No
[-] Rage = No

---------------------------------------------------

1993 (G2)
[-] Optimus Prime = Probably not :p (I personally consider Ultimate Battle Optimus Prime as Classics "G2" Prime)
[-] Inferno = No
[-] Jazz = No
[R] Sideswipe = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Drench = No
[-] Gobots = No
[-] Grimlock = No
[-] Slag = No
[-] Snarl = No
[-] Beachcomber = No
[-] Bumblebee = No
[-] Hubcap = No
[-] Seaspray = No
[+] Megatron = Yes (Ultimate Battles, Universe)
[-] Deluge = No
[-] Jetstorm = No
[-] Devastator = No
[R] Ramjet = Yes (Timelines)
[-] Starscream = No

---------------------------------------------------

1994
[-] Optimus Prime = No
[-] Superion = No
[-] Electro = No
[-] Volt = No
[-] Leadfoot = No
[-] Manta Ray = No
[-] Megatron = No
[-] Bruticus = No
[-] Jolt = No
[-] Sizzle = No
[-] Powerdive = No
[-] Ransack = No
[r] Dreadwing = Yes (Tokyo Toy Show 2010 exclusive)
[r] Smokescreen = Yes (Tokyo Toy Show 2010 exclusive)
[R] Breakdown = Yes (BotCon 2010 exclusive)

---------------------------------------------------

1995
[+] Laser Optimus Prime = Yes (Reveal the Shield)
[/] Air Raid = Yes (Classics)
[/] Skydive = Yes (Universe)
[-] Jetfire = No
[R] Strafe = Yes (Gentei! Gentei!)
[-] Blowout = No
[-] Bumblebee = No
[-] Double Clutch = No
[-] Firecracker = No
[-] Gearhead = No
[-] High Beam = No
[-] Ironhide (Go-Bot) = No
[-] Mirage = No
[-] Motormouth = No
[-] Optimus Prime (Go-Bot) = No
[-] Sideswipe = No
[-] Road Rocket = No
[-] Ironhide (Power Master) = No
[-] Meanstreak (Power Master) = No
[-] Dirtbag = No
[-] Roadblock = No
[-] Hooligan = No
[+] Skyjack = Yes (Universe Skyfall)
[-] Frenzy (Go-Bot) = No
[-] Megatron (Go-Bot) = No
[-] Soundwave (Go-Bot) = No
[-] Road Pig = No
[-] Bulletbike = No
[-] Staxx = No

Some people consider these stand ins:

[-] Gears = No ROTF Gears it's rubbish lol
[+] Huffer = Yes (Timelines) :/ and PCC Huffer?
[-] Soundwave = No Device Label MP3 player
[-] Blaster = No Device Label Laptop
[-] Roadbuster = No TRU Comic 2 pack Universe repaint, comes with dirge I think.
[-] Outback = No RTS Outback

I wouldn't say no to a proper upgrade though.

Yeah, I'm not counting "stand ins". You're right about Roadbuster though! (I used to have this toy too!) -- amended. :)

oops! That should be RTS Fallback lol. :rolleyes: You don't think he should be counted?

Whirl & Trypticon had legends in the first Classics line. Blaster in the Universe 2.0 line is meant to be the classic Blaster character.

I agree on Fallback being Outback (RTS is a Classics line, and the BotCon Timelines version is meant to be Outback too). And going with BotCon toys G1 Laserbeak and Buzzsaw have updated figures too.

At a bit more of a stretch the Universe Micromaster Defensor could be consider. Ok it far more than a "bit" of a stretch.

Drag Strip and Overkill were released as Universe Special Editions.

Hot Spot was released as Hot Zone in the Titaniums line but that wave was also branded Universe. Even if you don't count that one, there was also a Classics Legends figure released in a 5 pack with several other figures. One of them being Razorclaw, who is also missing.

Razorclaw had that previously mentioned Classics Legends figure and a Timelines release.

Thundercracker was also released in Generations.

The re-issue G1 Soundwave was also marked as Universe (Seeing it was the catch-all line for most 'other' stuff at the time), same packaging, same derpy artwork, except it benefited from Soundwave's lack of a mouth . (That's the SDCC version though, not the general 'Robots In Disguise' Commemorative release).

Technically that would also knock off Laserbeak from the list. (Booster X10 is an obvious Laserbeak also, it just unfortunately lacks the name). Also Ratbat if you want to include him from the SDCC version, and of course the comic 2pack repaint version.

So that's 3 different Soundwaves and 4 releases, not including Generations WFC Soundwave or Diaper Soundwave (Titanium).


Surprising, really.


EDIT: Also, seeing as it says just the first 3 years, should some be changed, or should we list all missing ones from Generations etc?

EDIT2: Warpath should be Universe and Generations, for the Legends and Deluxe versions

Since what is officially defined as 'Classics' has really been messed up by Hasbro, for clarity, I would suggest to only use proper 'classics' molds and repaints intended to fit into the line (like Botcon or the TRU 2 pack repaints).

You missed Generations Thrust there Gok, you only included the botcon one, but there is an official Generations version

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I've implemented a new classifications system and reclassified some toys accordingly. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tinyJazz

oops! That should be RTS Fallback lol. :rolleyes: You don't think he should be counted?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulbot

Whirl & Trypticon had legends in the first Classics line. Blaster in the Universe 2.0 line is meant to be the classic Blaster character.

I agree on Fallback being Outback (RTS is a Classics line, and the BotCon Timelines version is meant to be Outback too). And going with BotCon toys G1 Laserbeak and Buzzsaw have updated figures too.

At a bit more of a stretch the Universe Micromaster Defensor could be consider. Ok it far more than a "bit" of a stretch.

---

All these characters are now reclassified. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

Drag Strip and Overkill were released as Universe Special Editions.

Hot Spot was released as Hot Zone in the Titaniums line but that wave was also branded Universe. Even if you don't count that one, there was also a Classics Legends figure released in a 5 pack with several other figures. One of them being Razorclaw, who is also missing.

Razorclaw had that previously mentioned Classics Legends figure and a Timelines release.

---

All have been reclassified except for Overkill who's a 1987 character. I'll classify him accordingly once I start including that year's line into the list. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

The re-issue G1 Soundwave was also marked as Universe (Seeing it was the catch-all line for most 'other' stuff at the time), same packaging, same derpy artwork, except it benefited from Soundwave's lack of a mouth . (That's the SDCC version though, not the general 'Robots In Disguise' Commemorative release).
Technically that would also knock off Laserbeak from the list.
Also Ratbat if you want to include him from the SDCC version, and of course the comic 2pack repaint version.

---

In that case we should include Masterpiece Starscream too :rolleyes: Fine... they're included but classified as "debatable." The comic 2 pack version of Ratbat was already included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

(Booster X10 is an obvious Laserbeak also, it just unfortunately lacks the name).

---

...not to mention he's an Autobot... and in a complete different series/continuity. That would be a "stand in" at best, which I'm definitely not including.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

So that's 3 different Soundwaves and 4 releases, not including Generations WFC Soundwave or Diaper Soundwave (Titanium).

---

Ti Series Soundwave wasn't marketed as Universe or any other "Classicsverse" line AFAIK... just as Titanium Series. I'm not including any of the Generations WFC toys because they don't represent these characters in their 1984-85 incarnations. That's why Generations has been intentionally excluded from Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, Cliffjumper and Megatron too. I have now also removed Universe and Ultimate Battle Megatron too - because those are Classicsverse versions of 1993 Megatron, not 1984 Megatron.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

EDIT: Also, seeing as it says just the first 3 years, should some be changed, or should we list all missing ones from Generations etc?

---

Changed in what way? I've listed all the G1 characters from 1984-86 and denoted which ones have been released or not released or maybe released as Classicsverse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

EDIT2: Warpath should be Universe and Generations, for the Legends and Deluxe versions

---

Fixed. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kup

Since what is officially defined as 'Classics' has really been messed up by Hasbro, for clarity, I would suggest to only use proper 'classics' molds and repaints intended to fit into the line (like Botcon or the TRU 2 pack repaints).

---

Excellent idea. I've implemented a new classification scheme based on your suggestion. :) All "proper" or "true" Classicsverse moulds are now marked with [+]. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

Thundercracker was also released in Generations.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liegeprime

You missed Generations Thrust there Gok, you only included the botcon one, but there is an official Generations version

---

As I said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I'm not going to list every version of each Classicsverse mould, so I'm just going to list one. e.g. "Classics Optimus Prime" also includes Henkei Convoy etc. - same mould.

---

So to clarify, I've listed Thundercracker and Thrust as "Timelines" because those were the first versions of those figures as Classicsverse, but I know that since then we've had subsequent versions, most notably Generations which made these figures commonly available in retail stores. This is why I've marked them as [+] and not as[*]. The latter denotes toys which are bloody rare and have remained that way, e.g. no common retail version has since been released.

Edit: I've now included 1987-1988. Yes, I've intentionally omitted Cindersaur from the 1988 list for the same reason why I omitted Streetwise from 1986 -- their BotCon toys do not represent their G1 incarnations from those periods, but rather their theoretical G2 incarnations. So they don't count as "Classicsverse" upgrades of G1 Streetwise and G1 Cindersaur.

1989-1993 added. The checklist should now cover all of G1 and G2 (Hasbro). Please LMK if I've missed anything.

Reissues don't count, as they specifically refer to 'updated' figures... as in Classicverse-styled homages (including related lines like Reveal the Shield, and toys that ended up in movie packaging for convenience by Hasbro).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

...not to mention he's an Autobot... and in a complete different series/continuity. That would be a "stand in" at best, which I'm definitely not including.

---

Booster x10 is a 'con.
Though still just a stand-in what with being a different character in a different continuity, but Nightbeat was the Autobot repaint.
Sorry to be nitpicky.

It still says no against Trypticon and Whirl despite the [/] for their Classics legends figures. Fireflight, Air Raid and Skydive all have repurposed legends figures.

Hun-Grrr and Blades also have [/] legends figures in Universe 2.0 multi-packs. And there was a Voyager Blades too in Universe 2.0.

And you're missing Double Punch from the 1991 list who has a Timelines version.

And Timelines Slice for Slicer should be noted too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulbot

It still says no against Trypticon and Whirl despite the [/] for their Classics legends figures. Fireflight, Air Raid and Skydive all have repurposed legends figures.

Hun-Grrr and Blades also have [/] legends figures in Universe 2.0 multi-packs. And there was a Voyager Blades too in Universe 2.0.

And you're missing Double Punch from the 1991 list who has a Timelines version.

And Timelines Slice for Slicer should be noted too.

---

I agree with Paulbot. Those legends figures were clearly little more than nameslaps on existing molds and were not made to 'be' the G1 characters unlike the dedicated classics molds.

Foe example, the 'Classics' minicons can't exactly be regarded as 'G1'.

Actually, I'm surprised at how difficult a list like this is to do, with everyone able to come to consensus on what 'counts'.

Guess the final word is, you're better off looking for yourself. Look at other people's collections, look at product catalogues, look at releases by year. Don't limit it to line, and decide what works for you, based on what you want.

It's hard to even casually recommend a list like this. It's always going to come down to someone's 'fanon' (for want of a better word) over-riding other's suggestions, in an attempt to make the list look and 'feel' credible.

Enjoy collecting, collect what you want, as who you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Actually, I'm surprised at how difficult a list like this is to do, with everyone able to come to consensus on what 'counts'.

Guess the final word is, you're better off looking for yourself. Look at other people's collections, look at product catalogues, look at releases by year. Don't limit it to line, and decide what works for you, based on what you want.

It's hard to even casually recommend a list like this. It's always going to come down to someone's 'fanon' (for want of a better word) over-riding other's suggestions, in an attempt to make the list look and 'feel' credible.

Enjoy collecting, collect what you want, as who you want.

---

True, it is impossible to have a set of rules for this but there is no reason not to have a guideline for anyone interested.

I personally re-purpose a lot of stuff as Classics using personal preference and common sense - Everyone is doing this in one form or another since Hasbro's own official assignations are unclear at best leaving it open for broad interpretation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulbot

It still says no against Trypticon and Whirl despite the [/] for their Classics legends figures. Fireflight, Air Raid and Skydive all have repurposed legends figures.

---

Fixed for all except Air Raid and Skydive -- I've counted their repurposed Legends figure under Generation 2 (1995).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulbot

Hun-Grrr and Blades also have [/] legends figures in Universe 2.0 multi-packs. And there was a Voyager Blades too in Universe 2.0.

And you're missing Double Punch from the 1991 list who has a Timelines version.

And Timelines Slice for Slicer should be noted too.

---

Fix'd. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kup

I agree with Paulbot. Those legends figures were clearly little more than nameslaps on existing molds and were not made to 'be' the G1 characters unlike the dedicated classics molds.

Foe example, the 'Classics' minicons can't exactly be regarded as 'G1'.

---

Hence the "True" Classicsverse & "Faux" Classicsverse categories -- if people want to get picky and overlook repaints from other toylines that have been repainted and chucked into Classicsverse as opposed to those that have been purpose-designed for Classicsverse, then they should be focusing on the "True" Classicsverse figures marked with [+] (or their repaints marked with [+]).

Anything marked with [/] are "Faux" (false) Classicsverse; i.e. non-Classicsverse moulds that have been repainted and thrown into the Classicsverse line by Hasbro. These toys may be widely considered to be not 'real' Classicsverse toys by many collectors and only really count because of Hasbro marketing, but otherwise don't really feel like they belong in the Classicsverse line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Actually, I'm surprised at how difficult a list like this is to do, with everyone able to come to consensus on what 'counts'.

---

Trying to 'count' anything is jolly hard because everyone has a different opinion on what should and shouldn't count. And unlike the Universal Counting Method for toys, I am NOT even going to try to come up with a general consensus for what toys should and shouldn't count for Classicsverse. I've tried to include every character who's ever had a toy incarnation that HasTak have marketed under CHUGGURT as well as those which they haven't but their marketing or history lends some ambiguity that there might be a case to argue for them to count (see TF2010 and ROTF Bludgeon discussion below).

I've tried to point out which ones are toys that are purpose-made for Classicsverse, which ones aren't, which are repaints of what and so forth and people can just decide for themselves which ones they want to count or not. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Guess the final word is, you're better off looking for yourself. Look at other people's collections, look at product catalogues, look at releases by year.

---

Go to brick and mortar stores and look on shelves. ;) Looking at other people's collections is a good suggestion... try before you buy. :) Maybe arrange for 'show and tell' at fan meets :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

It's hard to even casually recommend a list like this. It's always going to come down to someone's 'fanon' (for want of a better word) over-riding other's suggestions, in an attempt to make the list look and 'feel' credible.

---

I've tried to eliminate fan bias as much as possible - that's why I'm not including arbitrary "stand ins" (i.e. non-Classicsverse toys that people personally decide to repurpose as Classicsverse, e.g. Music Label Soundwave as Classicsverse G1 1984 Soundwave, Movieverse Axor as Classicsverse Axer etc.).

Anything that's listed as having a Classicsverse toy is there because they have a toy which HasTak have explicitly marketed as Classics/Timelines/Henkei/Gentei/Universe/Generations/United/Reveal The Shield or other similar lines that are part of what we call "Classicsverse". There are some which are ambiguous, particularly those from Hasbro's label-less Transformers 2010 line, and others like ROTF Bludgeon who was ultimately a ROTF toy but at one stage was considered by Hasbro to be a Classicsverse toy (thus some fans might argue "prior intent"). And even there I've labelled with with [?] to denote the ambiguous or debatable nature of their classification as Classicsverse.

Any toy with [+] or [+] are definitely Classicsverse. Can't go wrong with those IMO. :) Okay, I've now redefined the rare figures...
[R] = bloody rare "True" Classicsverse moulds, e.g. United Frumble (original mould made for Classicsverse)
[R] = bloody rare "True" Classicsverse repaints, e.g. Shattered Glass Thundercracker (repaint of Classics Starscream mould)
[r] = bloody rare "Faux" Classicsverse repaints, e.g. Timelines Double Punch (repaint of Energon Scorponok)

Just a reminder; there's the G1 & Classicsverse comparison thread which is chock full of photos comparing Classicsverse toys with their original namesakes. Feel free to have a browse and decide for yourselves how well different Classicsverse toys homage their original namesakes. :)

Also there are still some comparison pics which haven't been done yet... so feel free to contribute if you notice any missing comparison (e.g. Punch/Counterpunch -- I have the G1 toy but I don't have the Timelines toy to take a comparison pic with).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Just a reminder; there's the G1 & Classicsverse comparison thread which is chock full of photos comparing Classicsverse toys with their original namesakes. Feel free to have a browse and decide for yourselves how well different Classicsverse toys homage their original namesakes. :)

Also there are still some comparison pics which haven't been done yet... so feel free to contribute if you notice any missing comparison (e.g. Punch/Counterpunch -- I have the G1 toy but I don't have the Timelines toy to take a comparison pic with).

---

hmmmm, doesnt kup have that toy? or Im just imagining it, mebbe we could ask him to post some pics there...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Fixed for all except Air Raid and Skydive -- I've counted their repurposed Legends figure under Generation 2 (1995).


Fix'd. :)



Hence the "True" Classicsverse & "Faux" Classicsverse categories -- if people want to get picky and overlook repaints from other toylines that have been repainted and chucked into Classicsverse as opposed to those that have been purpose-designed for Classicsverse, then they should be focusing on the "True" Classicsverse figures marked with [+] (or their repaints marked with [+]).

Anything marked with [/] are "Faux" (false) Classicsverse; i.e. non-Classicsverse moulds that have been repainted and thrown into the Classicsverse line by Hasbro. These toys may be widely considered to be not 'real' Classicsverse toys by many collectors and only really count because of Hasbro marketing, but otherwise don't really feel like they belong in the Classicsverse line.



Trying to 'count' anything is jolly hard because everyone has a different opinion on what should and shouldn't count. And unlike the Universal Counting Method for toys, I am NOT even going to try to come up with a general consensus for what toys should and shouldn't count for Classicsverse. I've tried to include every character who's ever had a toy incarnation that HasTak have marketed under CHUGGURT as well as those which they haven't but their marketing or history lends some ambiguity that there might be a case to argue for them to count (see TF2010 and ROTF Bludgeon discussion below).

I've tried to point out which ones are toys that are purpose-made for Classicsverse, which ones aren't, which are repaints of what and so forth and people can just decide for themselves which ones they want to count or not. :cool:


Go to brick and mortar stores and look on shelves. ;) Looking at other people's collections is a good suggestion... try before you buy. :) Maybe arrange for 'show and tell' at fan meets :D


I've tried to eliminate fan bias as much as possible - that's why I'm not including arbitrary "stand ins" (i.e. non-Classicsverse toys that people personally decide to repurpose as Classicsverse, e.g. Music Label Soundwave as Classicsverse G1 1984 Soundwave, Movieverse Axor as Classicsverse Axer etc.).

Anything that's listed as having a Classicsverse toy is there because they have a toy which HasTak have explicitly marketed as Classics/Timelines/Henkei/Gentei/Universe/Generations/United/Reveal The Shield or other similar lines that are part of what we call "Classicsverse". There are some which are ambiguous, particularly those from Hasbro's label-less Transformers 2010 line, and others like ROTF Bludgeon who was ultimately a ROTF toy but at one stage was considered by Hasbro to be a Classicsverse toy (thus some fans might argue "prior intent"). And even there I've labelled with with [?] to denote the ambiguous or debatable nature of their classification as Classicsverse.

Any toy with [+] or [+] are definitely Classicsverse. Can't go wrong with those IMO. :) Okay, I've now redefined the rare figures...
[R] = bloody rare "True" Classicsverse moulds, e.g. United Frumble (original mould made for Classicsverse)
[R] = bloody rare "True" Classicsverse repaints, e.g. Shattered Glass Thundercracker (repaint of Classics Starscream mould)
[r] = bloody rare "Faux" Classicsverse repaints, e.g. Timelines Double Punch (repaint of Energon Scorponok)

---

It's still a biased list, man. It can't help but be. Saying it's not just isn't correct, not when you list your own reasons for eliminating toys that seem dubious compared to other inclusions at best. (RTS counts, yet Grapple, Sea Spray, Bludgeon, etc don't? Despite clear evidence of what Bludgeon was conceived at, and that generally, Generations didn't have Voyagers, hence they were put where they could).

Bias is bias. It's impossible to not have bias in this list, but just admit it, don't deny it then contradict your own statement in the next paragraph, there's nothing wrong with admitting the list has the natural bias of the author, that's just natural.

Didn't this whole exercise start from a post trying to narrow down the options for an upcoming Botcon mold?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by griffin

I guess it means we will be seeing a fair few of the Reveal-the-Shield and early wave Generations toys next year.

So based on their hints "Three of the characters are getting their first updates ever" and "Two of the figures draw upon the "distant past" ", I wonder who they could be hinting at.
The first hint sounds like Gen1 characters from the first couple years of the toyline (1984-1986) that haven't been done in Classicverse yet, which there aren't too many left now.
While the second hint may refer to "War Dawn" type characters... like Orion Pax, Dion (again) and Ariel.

Is there a list somewhere that checks off the first 3 years of TFs toys done in the Classicverse line? (to help narrow down the list of potentials)

---

Maybe we should be using the criteria from the hints - did the reps say it was specifically Classicsverse? I would have assumed Seaspray and Grapple/Grappel would have come under 'updates' for guessing game purposes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liegeprime

hmmmm, doesnt kup have that toy? or Im just imagining it, mebbe we could ask him to post some pics there...

---

Yep I have both the Club and G1. I will take pictures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

It's still a biased list, man. It can't help but be.

---

Well I did say that I've tried to eliminate (perhaps "minimise" is a gooderer word) bias, but of course it cannot be completely removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Saying it's not just isn't correct, not when you list your own reasons for eliminating toys that seem dubious compared to other inclusions at best. (RTS counts, yet Grapple, Sea Spray, Bludgeon, etc don't? Despite clear evidence of what Bludgeon was conceived at, and that generally, Generations didn't have Voyagers, hence they were put where they could).

---

Grappel counts.

Sea Spray is dubious because his packaging is devoid of any series indicator, and also (from TFwiki):

Quote:

---

At Toy Fair 2010 and in the March 2010 answers to tfwiki.net's questions in Hasbro Q&A, Hasbro representatives were adamant that Sea Spray is the same character as Generation 1 Seaspray, being a Classics-style upgrade of the Mini Vehicle placed in the adjectiveless 2010 Transformers toyline because they felt he should be a Voyager and Generations was only Deluxes. His packaging bio, however, places him versus live-action-styled guys who seemingly operate in the live-action-style universe and Sea Spray is included in the Unite for the Universe comic. But, in December 2010's Q&A, Hasbro stated that "Seaspray" and some other 2010 yellow-carded toys "do not exist in the movie world". Should these comments by Hasbro be filed under authorial intent?

---

Technically Sea Spray IS a movieverse toy, and not Classicsverse; I personally display him on my movieverse Autobots shelves, not on my Classicsverse Autobots shelves -- but I can see how other people might argue that he could be a Classicsverse toy. Basically the [?] category is a "technical no" but there could be a valid reason to argue to the contrary under authorial intent.

Bludgeon is also classed as [?] debatable -- but he's probably even more dubious because unlike Sea Spray whose mould was originally intended to be Classicsverse, Bludgeon was originally intended for the Unicron Trilogy line, but then later reconsidered for Classicsverse, but then reconsidered for Revenge of the Fallen which is where he finally fell. So technically that toy is movieverse and not Classicsverse, but again one could pitch the authorial intent argument...
From TFwiki...

Quote:

---

The origin of Voyager class Bludgeon is older than one may expect. Artist Don Figueroa submitted a concept for a Unicron Trilogy Bludgeon toy that looked very similar to the final product way back during the development of the Energon or Cybertron toylines. Obviously, the concept wasn't put into production as a toy at the time, so Figueroa used it as inspiration for his IDW Publishing Stormbringer rendition of Generation 1 Bludgeon. However, Hasbro evidently resurrected the concept for the Universe (as mentioned by Hasbro at BotCon 2009) and then the Revenge of the Fallen lines. Figueroa notes that his contribution on this toy is very small, as his work on it ended when he submitted the concept to Hasbro way back when.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Bias is bias. It's impossible to not have bias in this list, but just admit it, don't deny it then contradict your own statement in the next paragraph, there's nothing wrong with admitting the list has the natural bias of the author, that's just natural.

---

I'm not including or excluding these toys based on my personal bias.

My personal bias is actually based on what the toys officially are classed as. If I completely allowed my personal bias to dictate this list, I would classify most of the toys in the debatable category as a clear [-] no. To me, Sea Spray and ROTF Bludgeon are definitively Movieverse... I display both toys on my movieverse shelves and I play with them in movieverse -- I've never mixed them up with my Classicsverse toys. As Verno might tell you, I'm pretty dogmatic when it comes to only following official canon. I personally don't give a flying rat's tail about authorial intent... if official canon says that these toys exist in the movie universe, then that IS where they exist to me. Authorial intent can go jump off a space bridge for all I care... the ONLY way I would personally accept these toys existing in Classicsverse is if there were an official retcon. That's why I personally don't enjoy reading fan fics, because most of them contradict official canon which I personally dislike (not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not my cup of Energon).

So the fact that I have allowed the "[?] debatable" category to even exist and classified toys like Sea Spray and Bludgeon into this category is actually me letting go of my normally super-anal dogmatic slavish retention to official canon! :D It actually goes against every fibre of my being... when I classified those toys as "debatable" my inner nerd raged and I had to spray him down with a garden hose. :p :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Didn't this whole exercise start from a post trying to narrow down the options for an upcoming Botcon mold?

---

That's why I made a separate thread so that we wouldn't derail the original thread. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Maybe we should be using the criteria from the hints - did the reps say it was specifically Classicsverse? I would have assumed Seaspray and Grapple/Grappel would have come under 'updates' for guessing game purposes.

---

Grapple/Grappel is Classicsverse. The list classifies him as "[+] Yes", so I'm not sure why he's being disputed. Although I might re-classify him as "[+] Yes" because he is a repaint/retool of Inferno (a fairly extensive retool though)... anyway, he counts!

With Sea Spray (not to be confused with Seaspray!) and Bludgeon, the reps have said different things at different times -- but the latest word is that they are movieverse - hence they are officially/technically classified as so. However some people prefer to go back to earlier citations from Hasbro which contradict their latest ruling... but really, the latest ruling should be the most authoritative (rendering previous rulings obsolete). I'm trying not to let my bias interfere with the list, hence why the [?] debatable category exists. And it is a debatable category - hence why it's marked with a question mark. If you don't want to count them (like me), then just don't count them! But I'd like to leave the option open for other people who may prefer to side with authorial intent and count them.

What I would prefer is if you guys would let me know if I'm being inconsistent in any of my classifications. Bias or no, I'd like to at least keep all rulings and classifications of these toys consistent. Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Didn't this whole exercise start from a post trying to narrow down the options for an upcoming Botcon mold? Maybe we should be using the criteria from the hints - did the reps say it was specifically Classicsverse? I would have assumed Seaspray and Grapple/Grappel would have come under 'updates' for guessing game purposes.

---

That's exactly what I was thinking. It isn't about what series or packaging a particular toy ended up in, but if we are getting a toy with "their first updates ever. Seaspray and Bludgeon are clearly an update of their Gen1 versions, reguardless of what universe or packaging they ended up in. Just like Crankcase, "Getaway" (Breakaway), Big Daddy, Jolt and "Erector" (Longarm) who were released in Movie packaging in 2007-2008... if they are considered "updates", I think that's what the BotCon people are referring to - the first X character toy since Gen1.

Maybe we need more clarification from FunPub on what they consider an "update", and just keep discussing what toys people here personally consider are "updates" in their collection.

Yeah, Sea Spray and Bludgeon are surprising ommissions.

Lugnut and Drift should also be included in the list, as they are G1-verse (which is back up by fiction appearing in 'Generations', art by Guidi, script by Furman, which clearly shows both operating in G1 Classicsverse).

We've also got Bludgeon appearing in IDW in what is essentially the same form as the ROTF toy, and IIRC Sea Spray appears in early TF Ongoing issues in his new form. Again, both 'canon' fiction sources, not fan-fic.


I see far more reasons to include them then to exclude them, particularly with Sea Spray. Add to that, IIRC, there was no equivalent Voyager line for the 'Classics' figures at that time, only deluxes. This was the only way to release them.

If you can sort through RTS to work out who's G1 and who's not, it's just as easy with SeaSpray.

EDIT: And why potentially downgrade Grapple? The G1 version was retooled from Inferno (or vice versa), so is this one. No different. Plus it was given the G1 cartoon accurate paintjob by TakTom for Japan, same as all the other Classicsverse figures at that time, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Yeah, Sea Spray and Bludgeon are surprising ommissions.

---

They're neither omitted nor included... that [?] category simply means it's open to debate because there are valid reasons to include or exclude them and I'm trying to avoid taking either side on that list. If I wanted to omit them they would be classified as [-].

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Lugnut and Drift should also be included in the list, as they are G1-verse (which is back up by fiction appearing in 'Generations', art by Guidi, script by Furman, which clearly shows both operating in G1 Classicsverse).

---

Lugnut I would place under Animated if the list extends as far as that (atm it just covers G1 and G2). As for Drift... he's not really a Classicsverse "upgrade" of any pre-existing toy (except maybe G1 Downshift... okay, I was kidding with that :p).

Later on I'll probably include a special list of Classicsverse characters who are the first toy realisations of previously canon-exclusive characters, like Drift and Darkmount. But neither Lugnut or Drift are updates of any toys released between 1984-95.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

We've also got Bludgeon appearing in IDW in what is essentially the same form as the ROTF toy,

---

The toy that eventually became ROTF Bludgeon was the inspiration for IDW's design of Bludgeon in Stormbringer, but it's not exactly the same.
Pics for comparison:
IDW Neo-G1 Bludgeon
Movieverse Bludgeon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

and IIRC Sea Spray appears in early TF Ongoing issues in his new form. Again, both 'canon' fiction sources, not fan-fic.

---

Even Hasbro can't seem to decide if Sea Spray is meant to be movieverse or Neo G1... from TFwiki:

Quote:

---

The Sea Spray character from the 2010 toyline was apparently intended to be this Seaspray, according to a Hasbro Q&A at the time. However, his bio and fictional appearances are rather at odds with this, portraying him alongside live-action film-style characters. As of November 2010, Hasbro maintains he is NOT a movie-verse character, so... well you can decide for yourself if he really belongs (in G1) instead.

---

...so we have conflicting canonical sources and comments from Hasbro... it's all too confusing, so just decide for yourself. To me he's Movieverse, but I can just as easily understand why others would classify him as Classicsverse. Until there's some kind of official retcon that conclusively places Sea Spray in either Neo-G1 or Movie universe, there will probably never be a definitive answer to what universe he belongs in ... unless you want to completely disregard canon/marketing and look purely at them as "toy updates."

But even then it might be ambiguous with some characters, because I could argue that:
+ the first toy update of Grimlock after 1995 was Beast Wars Grimlock (the repaint and retool of Dinobot)
+ Beast Wars Metals X-9 Jaguar (extremely extensive retool of Transmetal Cheetor) was the first toy update of G1 Ravage.
+ Magnaboss was the first toy update of G1 Ironhide, Prowl and Silverbolt
+ Brave Maximus is a toy update of Fortress Maximus (since in RiD the character had the same name)
+ Convobat is the first post-G2 toy update of Optimus Prime, heck one could also argue that Optimus Primal was the first toy update of Optimus Prime considering that prior to the BW cartoon he was originally intended to be Optimus Prime (again, authorial intent).
I guess one might have to draw a cut-off point as to how recent a toy should be to be classified as an update... which would be biased/subjective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

I see far more reasons to include them then to exclude them, particularly with Sea Spray. Add to that, IIRC, there was no equivalent Voyager line for the 'Classics' figures at that time, only deluxes. This was the only way to release them.

---

I personally see more reasons to exclude them than include them... but see, that's just my personal biased opinion, just as your conclusion is based on your opinion. Objectively neither of us are right or wrong -- there exists evidence to support both our views... so I think it's best just to leave them as [?] and let people individually decide whether or not to include them for themselves. The [?] category does NOT conclusively include nor exclude any toy from Classicsverse... it's just saying that it's open to debate, so it's really up to your personal opinion as to whether or not you want to count them.

If you consider Sea Spray to be Classicsverse, then he counts. If you don't, then he doesn't count. Simple as that. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

If you can sort through RTS to work out who's G1 and who's not, it's just as easy with SeaSpray.

---

Only that, AFAIK, Grappel doesn't have any conflicting evidence that could rule him out of being in Neo-G1. Grappel doesn't have canonical material that places him in the movie universe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

EDIT: And why potentially downgrade Grapple? The G1 version was retooled from Inferno (or vice versa), so is this one. No different. Plus it was given the G1 cartoon accurate paintjob by TakTom for Japan, same as all the other Classicsverse figures at that time, really.

---

It's okay, he won't be downgraded. The [+] category is supposed to be for "repaints of "true" Classicsverse moulds where it's debatable over how well they work as that new character" like Classics Cliffjumper (cos red Bumblebee =/= Cliffjumper damnit!!). Grappel/United Grapple totally work as Grapple, so he'll stay in the [+] category. :)

I do count SeaSpray, yes, so does Hasbro, and so would a LOT of potential newbies reading this list.

Yes, this is the bias comes from, from every person (obviously myself included), but for SeaSpray, we have Word Of God from Hasbro, and IDW G1 appearances.

It's the same character.

If you're not counting him, then we should get rid of Ratchet and Ironhide, who don't look much like THEIR original toys either...

Lugnut and Drift also have the Generations manga that was commissioned by TakTom. This firmly places Drift and Lugnut in Classicsverse, along with Grapple, etc.

Opinion is one thing, but you're ignoring multiple canonical sources here, along with what the wishes of the average collector would be:- to know that that SeaSpray exists, and is there as a viable upgrade for G1 SeaSpray, ala Powerglide, and is intended as such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

I do count SeaSpray, yes, so does Hasbro, and so would a LOT of potential newbies reading this list.

Yes, this is the bias comes from, from every person (obviously myself included), but for SeaSpray, we have Word Of God from Hasbro, and IDW G1 appearances.

It's the same character.

If you're not counting him, then we should get rid of Ratchet and Ironhide, who don't look much like THEIR original toys either...

Lugnut and Drift also have the Generations manga that was commissioned by TakTom. This firmly places Drift and Lugnut in Classicsverse, along with Grapple, etc.

Opinion is one thing, but you're ignoring multiple canonical sources here, along with what the wishes of the average collector would be:- to know that that SeaSpray exists, and is there as a viable upgrade for G1 SeaSpray, ala Powerglide, and is intended as such.

---

I personally don't like Seaspray so I don't have him and don't consider him a part of Classics..but that's just my take.

As I mentioned before, I don't think this list is a mandatory rule set that everyone needs to follow, just a loose guideline anyone can feel free to use.

If you don't agree with it, don't follow it; it doesn't mean that you are wrong and that the list is right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

(from here)



[-] Swerve = No :(

---

Swerve has been updated into the classicverse, just into a radically different form.
http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Swerve/swerve.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

I do count SeaSpray, yes, so does Hasbro, and so would a LOT of potential newbies reading this list.

Yes, this is the bias comes from, from every person (obviously myself included), but for SeaSpray, we have Word Of God from Hasbro, and IDW G1 appearances.

---

Hasbro sometimes counts Sea Spray as G1. Other times they count him as Movieverse as evidenced by his tech specs bio -- written by Hasbro!

And IDW comics have also placed Sea Spray in movie continuity too - re: "United For The Universe" #2, Chapter 3 "Bludgeon's Revenge".

Two canonical sources that place Sea Spray in the movie universe. The main supporting evidence for Sea Spray has come from Hasbro Q&A. Also, please refresh my memory -- precisely which IDW issue did Sea Spray appear as a G1 character?

Anyway, the fact remains that there are official sources which direct Sea Spray as G1 and as movieverse... so it seems that the "Word of God" (as you put it) is rather contradictory on this issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

If you're not counting him, then we should get rid of Ratchet and Ironhide, who don't look much like THEIR original toys either...

---

Irrelevant. Sea Spray and Bludgeon's dubious status has nothing to do with their visual aesthetics, but more to do with how official sources have classified these toys. e.g. Bludgeon has clearly marketed Bludgeon as a ROTF toy - however the argument of authorial intent can make his classification dubious. Sea Spray has been marketed as a movieverse toy (though not as clearly as Bludgeon - remember that the tech spec bios are part of the toy's marketing) -- both characters have also been portrayed as being part of the movie universe by officially sanctioned continuity, however again the argument of authorial intent can create ambiguity, and in Sea Spray's case, also comments from Hasbro Q&A also creates further dispute.

Universe/Henkei Ironhide and Ratchet on the other hand have - AFAIK - never had any canonical material that places them outside of the Neo-G1 continuity (e.g. putting them in movieverse continuity). In fact, the Henkei! Henkei! manga series (two different series) places them in Neo-G1 continuity. I've yet to see any canonical or marketing material or statement from HasTak that states otherwise and contradicts this. If you can show me such material then I will consider reclassifying them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Lugnut and Drift also have the Generations manga that was commissioned by TakTom. This firmly places Drift and Lugnut in Classicsverse, along with Grapple, etc.

---

I was never disputing this. Please re-read my comment about these characters again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Opinion is one thing, but you're ignoring multiple canonical sources here, along with what the wishes of the average collector would be:- to know that that SeaSpray exists, and is there as a viable upgrade for G1 SeaSpray, ala Powerglide, and is intended as such.

---

1. The wishes of any collector is based on personal bias. After all, a lot of fans believe in FIRRIB, yet it's technically incorrect for the toyline (and majority of G1 media) - including Classicsverse (United Frumble are RIRFIB).

2. As I've said before, if I wanted to ignore other people's opinions and multiple canonical sources, then I would never have bothered making the [?] category - instead simply choosing to classify Sea Spray and Bludgeon in the [-] category (which is how I personally categorise them). As I've said before, the entire reason why the [?] category exists is to cater for differing opinions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fatbot

Swerve has been updated into the classicverse, just into a radically different form.
http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Swerve/swerve.htm

---

Hmmm... TFwiki classifies this toy/character as part of Universe 1.0 and not Universe 2.0 -- I'm guessing this is because of the Universe 1.0 font they used on his instruction booklet.

Ummm... I'll classify him as [?] :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cat

Lugnut and Drift also have the Generations manga that was commissioned by TakTom. This firmly places Drift and Lugnut in Classicsverse, along with Grapple, etc.

---

Try to find Drift or Lugnut in a catalogue from 1984-1991 (Gen1). They weren't released during Gen1 as toys, which is the point of this topic - toys that are "updates" of (1984-1991) Gen1 toys.
Drift is not an update of anyone. And Lugnut is just a retcon into a comic that was printed 20 years after the end of Gen1.

I personally feel that Seaspray (or Sea Spray) was meant to be an update of the Gen1 Seaspray, in both looks and name... but like the 2007 Movie store exclusive "updates" that I noted above, this (and Bludgeon) had to be shoe-horned into the Movie story universe because they had to resort to sticking it into Movie packaging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by griffin

Try to find Drift or Lugnut in a catalogue from 1984-1991 (Gen1). They weren't released during Gen1 as toys, which is the point of this topic - toys that are "updates" of (1984-1991) Gen1 toys.
Drift is not an update of anyone. And Lugnut is just a retcon into a comic that was printed 20 years after the end of Gen1.

---

That's where you're wrong Griff. This is pretty much a What Goki Thinks categorisation thread.

Fair 'nuff @Goki, but if you could modify your list so it covers the guessing game and post it in the Botcon mold thread that's be appreciated too.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

That's where you're wrong Griff. This is pretty much a What Goki Thinks categorisation thread.

---

Alright, let me explain this again...
If this was a true "What Goki Thinks" categorisation, it would look like this:

Current:
[?][/] Soundwave = Maybe (if you count the Hasbro reissue)

Under Goki:
[-] Soundwave = No

Current:
[?][/] Laserbeak = Maybe (if you count the Hasbro reissue)

Under Goki:
[-] Laserbeak = No

Current:
[?] Seaspray = Maybe (re: Sea Spray)

Under Goki:
[-] Seaspray = No

Current:
[?][/] Outback = Maybe (if you count RtS Fallback)

Under Goki:
Outback = No

Current:
[?] Bludgeon = Technically no, but apparently at one stage Hasbro did consider using the ROTF Bludgeon mould for Universe (it was originally intended for Unicron Trilogy) but ultimately decided to use it for ROTF

Under Goki:
[-] Bludgeon = No

The entire [?] category was created in the interest of being inclusive. Under my system it would be exclusive and completely biased toward my dogmatic adherance to how Hasbro markets the toys (that's the way I sees 'em!). But under what you and Cat are suggesting, it would swing the bias in the opposite direction... and I don't see how that's any better than what I would do if I allowed my bias to dictate classification. Unless it's "but our bias is better than yours" -- nobody's bias is better or worse than anyone else's. It's bias!

I'm not claiming that this list is completely devoid of bias - very few (if any) classification systems are completely unbiased, not even scientific classifications (are humans really a separate species from apes? Living organisms are defined as containing at least a single cell with DNA, yet a virus has no DNA - so is it alive? Didn't Pluto used to be a planet? etc.) -- I'm just trying (<--operative word here) to be as unbiased as I can, but I won't pretend that it's bias free. Any list that anyone makes is going to have their own bias in it.

But I'm least trying to be consistent within this system of classification. So again, please let me know if there is anything that you think I have classified inconsistently according to the defined parameters of classification.

Let's look at Sea Spray for example...
+ If I classify him as [+], then I'm being biased toward those who classify him as G1 and consciously ignoring canonical evidence that places him in the movieverse (even if it's "shoe horned," it's still official). <--I'm screwed.
+ If I classify him as [-] (as I would like to!), then I'm being biased toward the "shoe horned" canon that Hasbro has made, and ignoring authorial intent. <--I'm screwed.
+ If I maintain him as [?] and let people decide for themselves, then people continue to complain that I'm being biased. <--I'm screwed.

Either way - I'm screwed!! :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Fair 'nuff @Goki, but if you could modify your list so it covers the guessing game and post it in the Botcon mold thread that's be appreciated too.:)

---

Feel free to copy and modify this list if you like. Just so long as you give me a 50% cut of all profits you make.

So... 50% of $0.00... hmm... <rubs.chin> :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

That's where you're wrong Griff. This is pretty much a What Goki Thinks categorisation thread.

Fair 'nuff @Goki, but if you could modify your list so it covers the guessing game and post it in the Botcon mold thread that's be appreciated too.:)

---

That's not really fair. He's the only person who's stepped up to put together a list, and you're hassling him instead of those who are complaining but couldn't be bothered doing up a list.
Since the parameters of the "update" concept are up to interpretation without any official word from Funpub on what they were meaning, he appears to be including as many options as possible... based on what most here think an "update" is meant to mean.

If you've suggested inclusions, the topic should be discussing why you might have certain figures treated as updates in your collection, not degenerating to complain about them not being included. If you think the list is that bad with its omissions or errors, post up your own complete list.

I've got to agree Griff. I applaud Gok for attempting this list. I have thought about it in the past and the headache I got just thinking about it was bad enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by griffin

That's not really fair. He's the only person who's stepped up to put together a list, and you're hassling him instead of those who are complaining but couldn't be bothered doing up a list.
Since the parameters of the "update" concept are up to interpretation without any official word from Funpub on what they were meaning, he appears to be including as many options as possible... based on what most here think an "update" is meant to mean.

If you've suggested inclusions, the topic should be discussing why you might have certain figures treated as updates in your collection, not degenerating to complain about them not being included. If you think the list is that bad with its omissions or errors, post up your own complete list.

---

Please don't fight...:(:(

I'm not complaining at all, apologies if/since that's how it came across.:o I appreciate the effort Goki put into this, especially when I don't have the extensive knowledge he does to do something similar myself.
This...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Didn't this whole exercise start from a post trying to narrow down the options for an upcoming Botcon mold?Maybe we should be using the criteria from the hints - did the reps say it was specifically Classicsverse? ... I would have assumed Seaspray and Grapple/Grappel would have come under 'updates' for guessing game purposes.

---

...and the reply here...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

That's why I made a separate thread so that we wouldn't derail the original thread. :)

---

gave me the impression this was a Goki Plays Aristotle thread, i.e. it was separate from the Botcon release thread.

From the brief scan of the list I've done the only change I'd make is putting Sea Spray in there as well, but as Griff says we'd need more details from Funpub to tell for sure - and the list is Goki's baby so he can put in whatever he wants. The Odieverse is a mostly repurpose-filled mishmash anyway so it's no skin off my nose who they bring out for the next Botcon set.

Again, sorry for the lack of clarity/misunderstanding. Gomen Goki!