Goki's Rantage Engine: Alice In Wonderland

Now I really do like and appreciate the homage to Pretenders made by Revenge of the Fallen with the Alice character, and I was really thrilled to see it. Those of you who were with me at the Sydney IMAX premiere might remember I was walking around afterward talking about how cool it was to see a Pretender in the movie. So just to clarify - I've always considered the concept of Alice to be a pretty cool one.

However soon after I saw the movie it dawned on me that Alice isn't really a Pretender. She's really a Transformer with a beast mode, and not a robotic animal mode like Ravage, but a true beast mode like those we see in Beast Wars, only that Alice's beast mode is a human (remembering that humans are primates/animals).

A true Pretender is one where the outer shell is essentially just an external casing, with the actual Transformer inside - and the Transformer itself can still transform into an alt mode such as a vehicle. Alice cannot do that. Her human form isn't a shell but is actually her alt mode. She transforms from robot to human and back.

Therefore it seems that despite Paramount's intentions, Alice really isn't a Pretender but a Beast Moded Transformer. Here's a visual comparison between Alice, a Pretender and a beast moded Transformer.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._pretender.jpg

Shes a pretender

live with it!


:p



shes a movieverse pretender to me, if it says somewhere official that she isn't then she isn't.

I dont think its healthy to over think this one


where as the Hauler/Grapple debate should be argued long into the night

Shes freakin hott ....

I dont care what she is :D:D

But if we are going by what we were brought up on in the cartoons I have to agree with Goki that she's a beast moded transformer :cool:

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Originally Posted by SOUNDBLASTER

Shes freakin hott ....

I dont care what she is :D:D

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+1 :D

Hmm... IMHO she's a Pretender

The arguement would be only that she does not part with any outer PRETENDER shell in the movie she simply transforms into her ALT mode. or i guess rather morphs into it ... But like I said i dont care shes freakin hott..

ALICE & MEGAN.... OK I'm gonna stop thinking about that just b4 I go to bed . :p:p

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._pretender.jpg

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Alice is a Pretender, because that's what official canon designates her to be. And you've got Lander pictured as your example of a Pretender - a character who morphs from a human to robot without any trace of a shell - just like Alice. The only difference between the two is that we don't know whether Alice has a vehicle mode... or what passes for a vehicle mode amongst Pretenders, anyway - basically just lying down and spreading one's le... Oh hey - she does have a vehicle mode! ;)

Although she may not be a Pretender in the traditional sense, to me, she is still a Pretender. This all just imo, but the way she transforms almost alludes to a shape-shifting/morphing ability, suggesting that her human form could be one of many she can emulate, ultimately making her a 'Pretender' in the sense of being able to... well... pretend =oP

Just my thoughts though...

Ok then I'm 50-50 on what i think then ... But I still want her in my bed . lol

Maybe without that tongues though... A normal human one will do :D:D

Maybe she still could be considered a pretender, it's just that she just never had a chance to change into her alt mode in the film?


Also, am I wrong in saying that she just doesn't do it for me?

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Originally Posted by Eruntalon

Also, am I wrong in saying that she just doesn't do it for me?

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No you're not wrong... We all just like different things :) :D

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Originally Posted by SOUNDBLASTER

No you're not wrong... We all just like different things :) :D

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yeah thats true

i like Headmasters and Breastmasters compared to Brainmasters

If I had to place myself into a continuity in the TRANSFORMERS world I would definatly be a BREASTMASTER :D:D

Well her "transformation reminds me of Mystique more than a tf, but the end result ( hideously fugly bot mode) reminds me of that Alien chick which kill men after mating with em. I dont care if she's hot, I aint liplocking with no man killing chick...:p

We should all classify her as 'Never do it again and forget it ever happened' :)

While it was the intention of the film's producers for Alice to be a Pretender, I don't recall her ever being referred to as one in the movie itself. Then again, the Constructicons were never called Constructicons in the movie either yet I happily classify them as Constructicons. :p

So if Alice qualifies as a Pretender in the movie universe, does this mean:
1/ All Transformers with a vehicle mode classify as Pretenders too? (Pretender Vehicles)
2/ If one follows the argument that in the movie-verse only Transformers with organic alt modes count as Pretenders, then hypothetically speaking if any Transformer were to appear in the movie with a true beast mode then shouldn't they count as Pretenders too? (Pretender Beasts)

Bring on movie Gunrunner and Carnivac!! :D :p

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

And you've got Lander pictured as your example of a Pretender - a character who morphs from a human to robot without any trace of a shell - just like Alice.

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Yeah I know - I couldn't find decent pics of Landmine's robot and vehicle modes in a hurry so I just grabbed pics of Lander. :p

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

The only difference between the two is that we don't know whether Alice has a vehicle mode... or what passes for a vehicle mode amongst Pretenders, anyway - basically just lying down and spreading one's le... Oh hey - she does have a vehicle mode!

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"I was wondering if I could ride you home, I mean give you a ride home!"
- Sam Witwicky

:)

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Originally Posted by SOUNDBLASTER

Shes freakin hott ....

I dont care what she is

ALICE & MEGAN.... OK I'm gonna stop thinking about that just b4 I go to bed .

But I still want her in my bed . lol

If I had to place myself into a continuity in the TRANSFORMERS world I would definatly be a BREASTMASTER

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Down boy! :)

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Originally Posted by Eruntalon

Also, am I wrong in saying that she just doesn't do it for me?

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I totally agree with you.

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Originally Posted by kup

We should all classify her as 'Never do it again and forget it ever happened'

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I really like the concept of Alice. If Transformers can transform into anything that they can scan, why not humans? It makes them suddenly much more dangerous too. In the first movie a Decepticon could be a police car or a CD player aboard Air Force One, but with Alice, she could be a girl sitting next to you in class! That's way freakier!

Now we still don't know if Transformers can actually scan organic objects or just facsimiles of organic objects, because according to the ROTF comic book adaptation, Alice scanned her alt mode from a mannequin of Alice In Wonderland from some amusement park ride; which seems implausible if she look and felt (but not tasted) realistic enough to pass of as a real human. Based off the film alone it did seem that her beast mode was scanned off an actual human with the real Alice killed shortly after. ;)

But give me more movie Pretenders over any of Bay's attempts at lewd juvenile humour any day! Alice >>>>>>> Jetfire farting a parachute

She's a Bayverse pretender - just a hunch but chances are if they ever do a true Beastformer it won't be considered a Pretender but rather a Beast-mode transformer.
Just one more thing to thank Mr Boy-&-His-1st-Car Bay for mauling remaking/reintroducing to the mythos - try not to think about it too hard is my advice.

I don't blame Bay for not introducing a real Pretender into the movie, because it would require either:
a/ Mass shifting; as seen in the G1 animation; Pretenders were able to grow to Transformer size before phasing out of their shells, then shrinking down to human size when inside their shells.
b/ Gigantic humans; as seen in the G1 Marvel comics. The Pretenders were only able to pass off as human(oid)s when they were on places other than Earth where other giant humans lived/frequented such as Grand Central Space Station, Femax, VsQs, Pz-Zazz, Cheyne etc.

But for the live action movie; being set on Earth and where mass shifting would look stupid, I can understand why Bay didn't go with a true G1-style Pretender. :) But in modifying/adapting the Pretender concept for the movieverse he has inadvertantly created - at least in my eyes - a beast moded TF rather than what is traditionally considered to be a Pretender.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

So if Alice qualifies as a Pretender in the movie universe, does this mean:
1/ All Transformers with a vehicle mode classify as Pretenders too? (Pretender Vehicles)

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Of course not: since the vehicles of Pretender Vehicles can't transform into robot mode, the only way the movie bots with vehicle modes could be Pretender Vehicles is if they're all the transforming inner robots of PVs and they left their vehicle shells at home. And to believe that would be really ignoring Occam's Razor to the Nth degree.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

2/ If one follows the argument that in the movie-verse only Transformers with organic alt modes count as Pretenders, then hypothetically speaking if any Transformer were to appear in the movie with a true beast mode then shouldn't they count as Pretenders too? (Pretender Beasts)

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If someone in power says they're Pretender Beasts then yes, that's what they are. Seriously, it's not like what happens in the movie universe is the same as what happened in G1. In Revenge Of The Fallen, a Seeker is a member of a group of individuals including Jetfire and Ransack who seek the Allspark. The Matrix Of Leadership is a key to a thingy that destroys stars. A Pretender's robot form may or may not have a vehicle mode. And a plot is... well... nobody knows what a plot is. ;)

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I really like the concept of Alice. If Transformers can transform into anything that they can scan, why not humans? It makes them suddenly much more dangerous too. In the first movie a Decepticon could be a police car or a CD player aboard Air Force One, but with Alice, she could be a girl sitting next to you in class! That's way freakier!

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Alice did add some suspense to the movie with the Library scene that was largley lacking in most other scenes actualy. And it's about the only new addition of Bay's that I've seen film critics praise. I don't mind her robot form either, as it reminds me of the robot from Metropolis.

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Seriously, it's not like what happens in the movie universe is the same as what happened in G1. In Revenge Of The Fallen, a Seeker is a member of a group of individuals including Jetfire and Ransack who seek the Allspark. The Matrix Of Leadership is a key to a thingy that destroys stars.

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The Matrix got upgraded from something that destroys Unicron, to something that destroy's stars, everything is bigger and balstier in the Bayverse! :D

I found that Alice also proved to be an interesting plot device that potentially threatened the relationship between Sam and Mikaela. As someone who avoided spoilers before seeing the movie and had no idea what Alice was, I honestly thought she was some girl trying to shoehorn in on Sam in order to strain his relationship with Mikaela. At first I thought that this would be a really lame distraction away from the central tale of the Transformers, but then she turned out to be a Decepticon and suddenly everything made sense and she changed from lame to cool in my book. :) She also allowed for a comedic moment in the library scene with the argument between Sam and Mikaela (the "time out," diesel-flavoured kiss etc.).

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zed

The Matrix got upgraded from something that destroys Unicron, to something that destroy's stars, everything is bigger and balstier in the Bayverse! :D

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Damn straight!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...ic_faith17.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

If someone in power says they're Pretender Beasts then yes, that's what they are. Seriously, it's not like what happens in the movie universe is the same as what happened in G1. In Revenge Of The Fallen, a Seeker is a member of a group of individuals including Jetfire and Ransack who seek the Allspark. The Matrix Of Leadership is a key to a thingy that destroys stars. A Pretender's robot form may or may not have a vehicle mode. And a plot is... well... nobody knows what a plot is. ;)

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That's coz there isnt one to be rocognized to begin with, its one big chase after another across continents.....:o:rolleyes:

I wish they'd explained Alice in the movie, or at least had her have some impact on the plot beyond getting Sam out of college. The implications of Transformers which can assume human form are huge, especially in terms of the Decepticons hunt for Sam.

I thought it was pretty clever to adapt the form of an "attractive" (cough) human female in an attempt to seduce "Ladiesman217." Intimate situations require people to completely lower their guard and are at their most vulnerable, so tactically it makes sense and shows that the Decepticons do have a good understanding of human psychology.

But yeah, there's a lot more potential for these humanformers; they could infiltrate various aspects of society including positions of power! Imagine if Obama turned out to be a Decepticon - Change You Can't Believe! :D

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Imagine if Obama turned out to be a Decepticon - Change You Can't Believe! :D

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Yeah, or imagine how different things would be if one of Australia's Prime Ministers was a Decepticon!

<imagining>

Hmm... okay, not that different at all, really. ;)

I'm disappointed in her presentation, not for pedantic fanboy reasons... but because executing her as a more traditional Pretender would have been awesome. The fold-around-skin thing just... didn't impress me.

If she'd unzipped her skin and it had fallen in a heap on the floor? That would have been AWESOME, much more Pretendery, and much more horrifying.

--Jhiaxus.

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Yeah, or imagine how different things would be if one of Australia's Prime Ministers was a Decepticon!

<imagining>

Hmm... okay, not that different at all, really. ;)

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Does this remind anyone else of that Simpson's episode where Kang and Kodos swap places with Bill Clinton and Al Gore to steal win the US election?
"Go ahead, throw your vote away! Ha ha ha..."

The sad bit is our recent mob is/has been so boring I could get behind that - especially if they looked like Alice. I'm talking either mode version too - if it was the 'alt-mode' version she'd be totally hot (Isabell Lucas ain't my thing personally but by Parliamentary standards she'd be top of the bunch for sure); if she was in robot mode we could still have 'Hottest Prime Minister' contests with New Zealand and it'd be even funnier when we won.
Sorry to the Kiwis here, we love your work but your PM looks like an orc. I'm sure she has a great personality though...:p

Uh.... Odie, is this the orc to which you refer?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nal_Party2.jpg

John Key, New Zealand Prime Minister, New Zealand National Party.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Imagine if Obama turned out to be a Decepticon - Change You Can't Believe! :D

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Who says he's not? either that or he's a Skrull or Zartan.

Maybe all three. :D

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Originally Posted by dirge

Uh.... Odie, is this the orc to which you refer?

John Key, New Zealand Prime Minister, New Zealand National Party.

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What?! Clarkie's gone?:( Boy is my NZ political awareness out of date...

At least we'd still win the beauty contest with PM Alice (the bikini round would seal it I'm sure), and it'd still be funny.

Aw, I thought Odie _was_ referring to John Keys (like on purpose)! :p

This is a tragedy I tells ya! Now I have to find something else to tease the Kiwis about - the sheep thing is so overdone after all.:(

Don't these politicians know they're only there for my juvenile personal amusement?!:mad: :rolleyes: