Hasbro US Conference talks about a Cinematic Universe

[griffin]

We still don't know if Transformers will be joining Hasbro's Cinematic Universe, but two properties have been dropped - MASK and ROM.

GIJoe and Micronauts are still going ahead for 2020, but it seems odd that MASK was dropped, as it would work in well with GIJoe (and Transformers - humans trying to replicate the alien converting technology).

[bowspearer]

We still don't know if Transformers will be joining Hasbro's Cinematic Universe, but two properties have been dropped - MASK and ROM.

GIJoe and Micronauts are still going ahead for 2020, but it seems odd that MASK was dropped, as it would work in well with GIJoe (and Transformers - humans trying to replicate the alien converting technology).

I suspect it was needlessly race-bending Matt Trakker which did it. He's a pretty iconic character and a live action movie with the changes wouldn't have gone down well with the nostalgia crowd the movie would be targeting.

[Ploughmans Lunch]

I suspect it was needlessly race-bending Matt Trakker which did it. He's a pretty iconic character and a live action movie with the changes wouldn't have gone down well with the nostalgia crowd the movie would be targeting.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can really agree with you on this.

-I feel you might be overestimating the impact of M.A.S.Ks nostalgia value and it's audience. Aside from the IDW series and an unlaunched line (which reshaped a lot of the original premise), it's had basically no media exposure for over 30 years. Transformers and GI Joe, on the other hand, have had their peaks and troughs but have always maintained a degree of presence or popularity, and Hasbro are actually making somewhat of an effort to sell a new version of Micronauts without going straight in with a film series, which is a bit smarter.
-The reaction from people on forums is often insignificant when it comes to wider film-going audiences and what they want. There are exceptions but I sincerely doubt M.A.S.K is one of them, given it's relatively small status outside of certain nostalgia markets (which aren't big).
-IDW's MASK would've sold badly even if they kept Trakker as Caucasian because it wasn't a particularly good story, nor was it wanted, nor was there any demand outside of what feels like Hasbro executives wanting to mimic the worst parts of Marvel/DC/what-not shared universe concept.
-I'm guessing that Hasbro pulled M.A.S.K and ROM from their lineup because of the four properties they had (and were intending to throw a ton of money at to make films), they had to consolidate and go with the more reasonable approaches. Maybe their reasoninig goes something like "no one outside of people approaching forty remember or care about M.A.S.K", and you need people outside of that to care.
-Likewise, ROM was cancelled along with M.A.S.L and that didn't have any issues with race-bending, but rather (and this is a guess), "we can't even use the parts of ROM that people, all of which are approaching forty or beyond MIGHT remember from a short-lived comic series, but probably don't, because those parts still belong to Marvel"
-I just feel that MASK, if you were to compare it to what is out there at the moment, could feel like merely a hodgepodge merging (to those without nostalgia) of Transformers and G.I Joe, the former which is critically panned (still made a lot of money, but doesn't need to be replicated) and the latter which can be a hard one to sell but has a much better chance than M.A.S.K on name recognition alone.

Personally, i don't think the race-bending is as big of an issue as some. With M.A.S.K and Trakker, I was neither for nor against it, becuase even if it was a genuine desire for more broader representation or a cynical ploy to exploit that for profit, it just wasn't a series of any importance nor real merit (AFAIK). I mean hell, even the First Strike issue of M.A.S.K was literally just part II of the G.I. Joe issue, and Trakker is now part of G.I. Joe (with a new codename), that's how insignificant the IDW interpretation of M.A.S.K is and, dare I say it, as a broader property? Not to say that MASK is bad or that I'm being critical of anyones taste, I just don't think that IDW having a black Trakker is all that important, also considering what IDW produce has relatively little bearing, content-wise, on films (outside of the concept of a shared universe and what-not).

Sorry I get a bit worked up whenever I see something about race-benidng HI HOW ARE YOU

[UltraMarginal]

I would like to see a mask movie, it's a good blend of ideas, and it could tie in to transformers pretty lightly without much effort.

The Mask Transformations can be a lot simpler, be cheaper to animate allowing for a lower budget more down to earth movie. Not every action sci fi movie has to be about the end of the world/universe

[bowspearer]

Yeah, I'm not sure I can really agree with you on this.

-I feel you might be overestimating the impact of M.A.S.Ks nostalgia value and it's audience. Aside from the IDW series and an unlaunched line (which reshaped a lot of the original premise), it's had basically no media exposure for over 30 years.

No it hasn't had the exposure, yet you seem to be underestimating the cult following it has in toy-related pop culture sections. In fact in countries like Germany, M.A.S.K. was pretty big last I checked. Yes it's not as well known as GIJOE or Transformers, but as a second stringer, it's even more well known than and loved than Visionaries, which is one of the brands Hasbro seem to be wanting to revive.

-The reaction from people on forums is often insignificant when it comes to wider film-going audiences and what they want. There are exceptions but I sincerely doubt M.A.S.K is one of them, given it's relatively small status outside of certain nostalgia markets (which aren't big).

You mean the same market that justified making a Transformers movie and a GIJOE movie to begin with?

-IDW's MASK would've sold badly even if they kept Trakker as Caucasian because it wasn't a particularly good story, nor was it wanted, nor was there any demand outside of what feels like Hasbro executives wanting to mimic the worst parts of Marvel/DC/what-not shared universe concept.

Ok, let's say for a minute that this was all Hasbro. Yes, the problem is that Hasbro don't really seem to understand M.A.S.K. Their approach almost seems to be to try and shoehorn it in under something else - largely GIJOE.

However that doesn't absolve Hasbro's part in all of this. Case in point, would anyone have cared about characters like Bludgeon or Thunderwing if Marvel had simply gone off what Hasbro wanted?

Likewise, would anyone have cared about Transformers much today if the cartoon was at the same level as Gobots?

This is my big bugbear with IDW - it's gotten almost to the point where they've stopped seeing stories to tell for the sake of good storytelling and only care about properties as vehicles for identity politics.

In fact it even harmed the core market that was there; the cynical identity-politics-pandering only turned off fans who are purists, such as myself because they failed to respect the core mythos.

-I'm guessing that Hasbro pulled M.A.S.K and ROM from their lineup because of the four properties they had (and were intending to throw a ton of money at to make films), they had to consolidate and go with the more reasonable approaches. Maybe their reasoninig goes something like "no one outside of people approaching forty remember or care about M.A.S.K", and you need people outside of that to care.

Except that while M.A.S.K. might be a b-grade toy property, it is at the top end of those properties and could easily become an a-list property with the right writing and movie. In fact, before Transformers was a hit, it had the same market demographic that G1 had in terms of a live-action movie aimed at older audiences.

-Likewise, ROM was cancelled along with M.A.S.L and that didn't have any issues with race-bending, but rather (and this is a guess), "we can't even use the parts of ROM that people, all of which are approaching forty or beyond MIGHT remember from a short-lived comic series, but probably don't, because those parts still belong to Marvel"

Actually there would be a strong argument for dumping ROM based on demand. The one thing you left out is that in international market, ROM has far less popularity and recognition than M.A.S.K. did. In fact I'd even put Rom at the same level of obscurity as Spiral Zone in countries like Australia.

-I just feel that MASK, if you were to compare it to what is out there at the moment, could feel like merely a hodgepodge merging (to those without nostalgia) of Transformers and G.I Joe, the former which is critically panned (still made a lot of money, but doesn't need to be replicated) and the latter which can be a hard one to sell but has a much better chance than M.A.S.K on name recognition alone.

Which would only happen if you had bad writing, as from a marketing perspective, that's exactly what M.A.S.K. was developed by Kenner to be. However if the writing and talent behind it were good enough, it could easily stand on its own two feet and find it's own place. Just look at Kamen Rider Drive as compared to Kamen Rider W.

Personally, i don't think the race-bending is as big of an issue as some. With M.A.S.K and Trakker, I was neither for nor against it, becuase even if it was a genuine desire for more broader representation or a cynical ploy to exploit that for profit, it just wasn't a series of any importance nor real merit (AFAIK).

That's just it, to most of us against it, it does read like cynical diversity pandering. As another fan who will remain nameless unless they choose to put their hand up to me said, it would have been one thing if they were doing it as a generation later sequel to the original (eg it was Hondo's son leading the new team), but this was just the old story of IDW putting "diversity" first and things like universe building and respect for properties dead last.

I mean hell, even the First Strike issue of M.A.S.K was literally just part II of the G.I. Joe issue, and Trakker is now part of G.I. Joe (with a new codename), that's how insignificant the IDW interpretation of M.A.S.K is and, dare I say it, as a broader property?

That only goes to demonstrate how little respect for the property they had to begin with; precisely why I panned it from the getgo.

Not to say that MASK is bad or that I'm being critical of anyones taste, I just don't think that IDW having a black Trakker is all that important,

Which it wouldn't be to anyone who isn't much of a fan of the series. To those of us who are more fans of the series, it comes across as a slap in the face to the character (and yes, I'd say the same thing if they made an iconic black character white).

also considering what IDW produce has relatively little bearing, content-wise, on films (outside of the concept of a shared universe and what-not).

And yet IDW comics are the medium which Hasbro seem to be using to reach their older audiences - the ones which PG-13 movies tend to be aimed at.

Sorry I get a bit worked up whenever I see something about race-benidng HI HOW ARE YOU

Race-bending is dodgy as hell and I imagine that Dwayne MacDuffy would be rolling in his grave if he could see the current state of play with it.

I despise it because it: a) it disrespects properties and reduces them to nothing more than blatantly shallow political vehicles, and;
b) unlike strong original characters who simply happen to be <insert minority here>, which empower people the people they're meant to, character bending essentially sends <insert minority here> the message that they can only succeed by riding on the coat tails of others.

[Ploughmans Lunch]

Yep.

Default whiteness is a thing but fair enough.

[bowspearer]

Default whiteness is a thing but fair enough.

Before I begin to respond to this, exactly which "whiteness" were you referring to: Celtic, Germanic, Slavic or Anglo?

But I digress. "Default whiteness" is always going to be a thing in cultures which at the time were predominantly white. If you look at franchises like Super Sentai and Kamen Rider, when white people do show up, it tends to be a more token white person (eg KyoryuCyan and especially ShinkenBrown). Should the makers of those shows be ashamed or concerned at their "default Japaneseness" too?

You're far less likely to see it with original properties now than you are say, 20 years ago. Power Rangers is a classic example of that, where casts for it are typically diverse.

However that aside, there are two ways to go about having a more diverse cast. The first is the cheap, tacky and in your face approach which people can see a mile off and which comes across as blatant diversity politics pandering. That is that you take an existing character and change some character trait, so you can say "hey we're not racist/homophobic/sexist/ableist/any other type of bigot - because look, this character is <insert label here> now".

It's cheap, it's tacky, it's condescending and it's downright paternalistically bigoted. People of a certain minority aren't just labels and acting in a manner which treats minorities like they are, is tantamount to an assertion of "they're all the same"/ "they all look alike to me".

That's not empowering people of a minority, it's being condescending to them.

The second approach, the one Dwayne MacDuffy did and there will never be enough accolades for him to give credit where its due, is to create the characters yourself, not in a way where it's like "hey here's a <insert token minority here> character", but where you have a compelling and interesting character, who just happens to be <insert minority here>.

Dwayne did it with his fellow collaborators so successfully that not only have the characters become so mainstream in the DC universe that Black Lightning is allegedly getting a show of his own in the Arrowverse, but back in the 1990s, DC had 3 animated series. The first two were Batman and Superman. The third was Static Shock. A Dakotaverse character was so successful and prominent that he beat out Wonder Woman, the Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow and every single other A-lister in the DC universe to get their own series. So don't tell me that Dwayne MacDuffy's approach doesn't work, because history shows that it clearly does. The fact that Black Lightning is set to get his own TV series shows that it's still working to this day.

Good storytelling and diversifying representations of characters don't have to be mutually exclusive. More crucially, not only does an approach which decides they are for the sake of identity politics become rejected by discerning readers who see it as a cheap and tawdry gimmick, but it becomes an insult to the very minorities it's alleging to empower.

the inherent dislike of change in any way

I wouldn't necessarily say "change in any way", rather that any change which is made, should respect the source material and be compatible with the core of it.

By all means more the story into the modern age for example, but respect the identity of the original characters and make how they are - identity and actions - in line with how those same characters would react if in this present day.

Like I it ultimately comes down to two things: respecting the material and respecting the audience.

[Raider]

I don't really remember MASK as a kid. I never watched the show and only played with the toys rarely if a friend had them but I did think it was cool.

Fast forward 30 years and I have been reading the IDW Transformer comics. I enjoyed the Revolution cross-over and that now has me into Rom, MASK, GI Joe and Micronauts. Would have been great to have a cinematic universe that captured all of them.

It is strange though as I really dislike Bayformers as it is just not Transformers as I remember it nor wish it to be. However, I have no feelings about MASK either way as I really only know the current iteration. I guess if I was as big a MASK fan from the 80s I would probably feel the same way as I think my feelings come down to a combination of nostalgia, fondness for the source material and the inherent dislike of change in any way

[Seraphim Prime]

This is my big bugbear with IDW - it's gotten almost to the point where they've stopped seeing stories to tell for the sake of good storytelling and only care about properties as vehicles for identity politics.

In fact it even harmed the core market that was there; the cynical identity-politics-pandering only turned off fans who are purists, such as myself because they failed to respect the core mythos.

I'm sorry but I cannot understand any argument that says changing the race of a character within a story fails to respect the core mythos (unless that character's race is a key part of the story and it's conflict - eg Luke Cage)

I read nothing in the IDW MASK books that tried to turn Matt Trakker into a character that suddenly had to deal with issues of homelessness, gang violence, or historic subjugation because he was suddenly African-American.

As far as core concept -
The original Matt Trakker was a father and leader of a leader of road warriors who piloted transforming vehicles.

The IDW Matt Trakker is a son and leader of a leader of road warriors who piloted transforming vehicles.

The IDW Mask series dealt with the conflict between a global arms dealer/terrorist organisation (VENOM) and those who formed to stop it (MASK), who each pilot amazing vehicles that are capable of transforming for multi-terrain combat. It dealt with people ads leader happened to be African American.

There is nothing in the core concept that is related to race and yet this gets targeted by people who want to trash a book because they lack the empathy to be able to identify with a character that no longer looks like them.

I don't remember seeing these issues raised with the Power Rangers reboot, when they changed the race of Trini, Zack, and Billy (but admittedly I don't really follow that fanbase anymore). So clearly race didn't factor into a story about 5 teenagers being provided mystical powers and piloting mechanical beasts against a space witch.

No it hasn't had the exposure, yet you seem to be underestimating the cult following it has in toy-related pop culture sections. In fact in countries like Germany, M.A.S.K. was pretty big last I checked. Yes it's not as well known as GIJOE or Transformers, but as a second stringer, it's even more well known than and loved than Visionaries, which is one of the brands Hasbro seem to be wanting to revive.

So we're talking about a niche within a niche property. Of which the core concept is vehicles which transform into other vehicles.

I doubt that race is factoring into poor reception any more than a lack of being able to target what MASK should stand for in a modern world, and therefore creating a touchstone for wide recognition beyond that niche market. Similar to how GI Joe ARAH struggles to define how characters largely characterised by old-school warfare are supposed to relate to a modern world.

Ok, let's say for a minute that this was all Hasbro. Yes, the problem is that Hasbro don't really seem to understand M.A.S.K. Their approach almost seems to be to try and shoehorn it in under something else - largely GIJOE.

However that doesn't absolve Hasbro's part in all of this. Case in point, would anyone have cared about characters like Bludgeon or Thunderwing if Marvel had simply gone off what Hasbro wanted?

I can't quite tell what you're trying to say here. On one hand you're condemning IDW for making nuanced changes to character's previously stated bios and backgrounds and then praise Marvel for marking nuanced changes to character's previously stated bios and backgrounds.

[reillyd]

I think there is an element of truth to both your perspectives. Content (comics with large runs, cartoons that get airtime) drive sales. I loved the Visionaries comic in Transformers UK and it made me want the toys. mask cartoon made me want the toys. But nostalgia won't sell toys in big numbers (remember even GI Joe, with two movies, didn't get toys on Australian and international shelves). I don't think a live action movie is going to work with either properties,but a animated series just might.