Organics of Transmetals & Transmetal 2s?

[Verno]

I'm still not sold on the 'mingling' or 'mixing' of Sparks - I'm certain they'd remain separate at all times.

'All is as it should be' scene from Nemesis Part 2

G1 Megs' Spark is being held (perhaps controlled), but clearly separate from BW Megatron's.

I say 'perhaps controlled' because G1 Megs seems to exhibit no influence on BW Megs, unlike Starscream who took over Waspinator head to toe.

Although, you could speculate that given the bodies of G1 Prime and Megs were in stasis, and their Lasercores perhaps offline, they couldn't influence their host's bodies.

So much speculation!

It's all about coming up with a series of rules that answer the unanswered questions for yourself I guess.

[GoktimusPrime]

BW Megatron becomes a TM2, instead of remaining a TM.

Every other TM2 (Cheetor, Dinobot and Blackarachnia) all have some contact with the Transmetal Driver in attaining a new form.

But Megs doesn't.

Neither did Tigerhawk. His TM2 body was created purely by the Vok without any apparent contact with a Transmetal Driver. It seems that the Deluxe and Mega TM2s were created by the driver, but the Ultras had different origins (again, really because Hasbro wanted them in the show -- remember that this part of Season 3 was written in a rush because Hasbro had ordered the cancellation of the series and the writers were trying to wrap up loose ends _while_ trying to introduce the last batch of toys at the same time).

And as for melding Sparks - I see it more as BW Optimus and BW Megs simply taking a 2nd Spark into their body, rather than the Sparks merging. In Optimal Situation, we see G1 Prime's Spark sitting in the cockpit section of Primal's form, where we later see Primal's Spark housed within his body. I'm of the opinion that Sparks would remain separate of each other.

Yeah, I agree. Megatron does explicitly say "mingle,", which can be synonymous with merging, but another accepted meaning is "to take part with others" or "to come into close association/contact with." And it's that latter meaning that he really meant -- the G1 and BW Sparks came in close contact with each other, but didn't actually physically merge.

But I think the reason why Optimus Primal got a more "massive" upgrade was because he mingled his Spark not only with a G1 Titan like Optimus Prime, but because said Spark had been in direct contact with the Matrix -- and he also transferred Prime's Spark directly from the Matrix vessel. G1 Megatron's Spark, while also a mighty Titan, wasn't in contact with the Matrix. I think that could explain why he didn't upgrade into an "Optimal Megatron."

Are Transmetals actually Organic? There's no doubt the robot modes of TM forms have organic motifs, with Cheetor and Primal appearing slightly furry. Rattrap however has no such detailing - all he has is the appearance of muscles or musculature - which is also seen on Optimal Optimus beast chest. So the argument could be made that yes Optimal Optimus is still retaining some organic nature.

Optimal Optimus' body has no organic motifs on it at all, unlike other Transmetals. His robot and beast modes are completely robotic/mechanical in appearance.

It's quite possible (albeit just more fanwank/conjecture) that the sparks of OP and Megs (being both 'guzzler' sparks and exceptionally powerful ones at that) mingle initially until their host bodies are capable of holding them and then return to being separate once it's 'safe' to do so.

He called them "Archaic Energon guzzlers," i.e. the Autobot and Decepticons are less fuel efficient than Maximals and Predacons (similar to how people might call a car with poor fuel economy a "petrol guzzler"). Remember that in G1 Micromasters were created as means of conserving fuel, and in Beast Wars the Maximals and Predacons are shown to be of approximate Micromaster size, and implied as being more fuel efficient (if Autobots/Decepticons are fuel guzzlers in their eyes). In the Wreckers comic we saw that, at the end of the Great War, Cybertronians like Rodimus, Arcee, Skywarp, Ravage etc. underwent the Maximal/Predacon Upgrade - which reduced them to the size of Micromasters and improved their fuel economy.

I say 'perhaps controlled' because G1 Megs seems to exhibit no influence on BW Megs, unlike Starscream who took over Waspinator head to toe.

Although, you could speculate that given the bodies of G1 Prime and Megs were in stasis, and their Lasercores perhaps offline, they couldn't influence their host's bodies.

Starscream had an indestructible mutant Spark -- its properties are unique and can't really be compared with others (hence why Maximal scientists attempted to replicate it when they made Protoform X). For whatever reason, Starscream's Spark can never be extinguished or returned to the AllSpark/Matrix. It only wanders aimlessly as a ghost.

[Verno]

Neither did Tigerhawk. His TM2 body was created purely by the Vok without any apparent contact with a Transmetal Driver. It seems that the Deluxe and Mega TM2s were created by the driver, but the Ultras had different origins (again, really because Hasbro wanted them in the show -- remember that this part of Season 3 was written in a rush because Hasbro had ordered the cancellation of the series and the writers were trying to wrap up loose ends _while_ trying to introduce the last batch of toys at the same time).

But the Transmetal Driver is of Vok origin - thus Tigerhawk got his 'transmetal' powers directly from the source.

But I think the reason why Optimus Primal got a more "massive" upgrade was because he mingled his Spark not only with a G1 Titan like Optimus Prime, but because said Spark had been in direct contact with the Matrix -- and he also transferred Prime's Spark directly from the Matrix vessel. G1 Megatron's Spark, while also a mighty Titan, wasn't in contact with the Matrix. I think that could explain why he didn't upgrade into an "Optimal Megatron."

Megs got an equally "massive" upgrade. Sure he doesn't have a 4th mode, but he grows quite considerably in both size and power, so much so that he is actually able to best Primal in their final fight.

Optimal Optimus' body has no organic motifs on it at all, unlike other Transmetals. His robot and beast modes are completely robotic/mechanical in appearance.

And what organic motifs does TM Rattrap have?

[GoktimusPrime]

But the Transmetal Driver is of Vok origin - thus Tigerhawk got his 'transmetal' powers directly from the source.

Fair point.

Megs got an equally "massive" upgrade. Sure he doesn't have a 4th mode, but he grows quite considerably in both size and power, so much so that he is actually able to best Primal in their final fight.

The nature of their upgrades may have differed due to Optimus Primal's transformation having been somehow influenced or affected by the Matrix; if in no other sense, cosmetically (i.e. no organic appearance). Although having a fourth mode, deployable shields, gatling cannons etc. is pretty significant (it doesn't make Primal unbeatable of course, but it's certainly impressive nonetheless).

And what organic motifs does TM Rattrap have?

As you said, the musculature, which runs throughout his entire torso, arms and legs. The way that the body and limbs are sculpted have always looked organic to me. He looks like a big muscly dude carrying a robotic-rat backpack. If you look at Optimus Primal's robot mode, there's nothing even remotely like that. Everything's angular, smooth and machine-looking. Robotic robot mode, robotic beast mode and mechanical looking vehicle modes.

[Verno]

As you said, the musculature, which runs throughout his entire torso, arms and legs. The way that the body and limbs are sculpted have always looked organic to me. He looks like a big muscly dude carrying a robotic-rat backpack. If you look at Optimus Primal's robot mode, there's nothing even remotely like that. Everything's angular, smooth and machine-looking. Robotic robot mode, robotic beast mode and mechanical looking vehicle modes.

That very same musculature is present on Op Op's Beast mode chest:

http://www.seibertron.com/images/toy...optimus012.jpg

Yes, this differs from other TMs, who show their 'organic' part in robot mode, but it is still present in Op Op's design.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, but those are robo-abs. It lacks the organic quality of the musculature sculpted on Rattrap which looks more 'fibrous' and 'sinewy' (for lack of gooder words). They're like the kinda abs you see on Iron Man's armour. Besides, the idea is for the robot mode to look organic while the beast mode looks robotic. OpOp looks robotic in both robot and beast modes, whereas other Transmetals look robotic in beast, organic in robot.

[Verno]

Yeah, but those are robo-abs. It lacks the organic quality of the musculature sculpted on Rattrap which looks more 'fibrous' and 'sinewy' (for lack of gooder words). They're like the kinda abs you see on Iron Man's armour. Besides, the idea is for the robot mode to look organic while the beast mode looks robotic. OpOp looks robotic in both robot and beast modes, whereas other Transmetals look robotic in beast, organic in robot.

He has toes. Game, set and match.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Well, this got interesting. Cheers to both of you, the various explanations make enough sense and/or are sufficiently plausible for my (extremely lax) standards that I'm not really fussed by it anymore.

The nature of their upgrades may have differed due to Optimus Primal's transformation having been somehow influenced or affected by the Matrix; if in no other sense, cosmetically (i.e. no organic appearance). Although having a fourth mode, deployable shields, gatling cannons etc. is pretty significant (it doesn't make Primal unbeatable of course, but it's certainly impressive nonetheless).

Just tossing this out there, but if you include Prime's trailer (and/or Roller) he sorta does have multiple alt-modes. It's a bit of a stretch, but no more so than a lot of TF lore let alone fanon.
Or you could just, you know, use the actual reason, but that's far less fun.

[SuspectimusPrime]

I'm still not sold on the 'mingling' or 'mixing' of Sparks - I'm certain they'd remain separate at all times.

I agree, BW's writers would be inviting too much controversy to hint that the G1 Sparks exhibited even an inkling of influence by Sparks from the future (see that Futurama episode where Fry travels back in time to the 1960's? ).

I say 'perhaps controlled' because G1 Megs seems to exhibit no influence on BW Megs, unlike Starscream who took over Waspinator head to toe.

Although, you could speculate that given the bodies of G1 Prime and Megs were in stasis, and their Lasercores perhaps offline, they couldn't influence their host's bodies.

So much speculation!

It's all about coming up with a series of rules that answer the unanswered questions for yourself I guess.

Perhaps, in Waspinator's case, Starscream was able to exert full dominance over Waspinator's body because Starscream's immortal Spark was so much powerful compared to Waspinator's Spark. A bit like those junk possessed by ghost movies (sorry no particular title comes to mind, just movies I watched as a kid in the 90's). So in G1 Megs/BW Megs' situation, you have two very powerful sparks where the visitor isn't able to dominate over the incumbent's body.

Also, just watched a SBS documentary on hypnosis yesterday, about how weaker minded individuals are more open and susceptible to suggestion, and thus more easily controlled by hypnosis.

[GoktimusPrime]

I think Verno's idea has some merit too -- the fact that Optimus Prime and G1 Megs' Sparks were dormant at the time, whereas Starscream's was very much active. Cross that with the mutation whereas G1 Megs' Spark probably isn't, and we know for sure that Optimus Prime's isn't (cos we've seen his Spark return to the Matrix in G1, especially when he died and Rodimus Prime was running around as leader)

Also, just watched a SBS documentary on hypnosis yesterday, about how weaker minded individuals are more open and susceptible to suggestion, and thus more easily controlled by hypnosis.