Organics of Transmetals & Transmetal 2s?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

So, I was just thinking...
In BW, Transmetals have mechanical alt-modes and organic elements in robot modes. Transmetal 2s have both mechanical and organic component melded in a more 'integrated' style.
TM Optimus Primal (in robot mode) shares/melds his Spark with Optimus Prime (entirely mechanical/no organic components) and - so far as I can see - becomes an entirely mechanical form. We see inside him in robot mode (the formerly partially-organic part) and everything's 100% machine.
So, it's not unreasonable to assume that the upgrade that comes from mingling sparks between a Transmetal and a 'guzzler' (or even just an exceptionally powerful-sparked guzzler such as Prime and original Megatron) creates a more powerful but also entirely mechanical form.

But then BW Megs mingles sparks with old-school Megs - who is 100% robot, and not that keen on organics unlike Prime. BW Megs is in robot mode as Primal was when he mingled sparks with Prime, i.e. he has a certain amount of organic components. He gets a size-and-power upgrade, much like Optimal Optimus. Yet apparently BW Megs' dragon form, created in the same manner with the same concoction of organic and inorganic parts as Optimal Optimus, is part organic (as becomes a major plot point in that terrible dream that never happened Beast Machines).

Surely, all things being equal, BW Megs should also be an entirely robotic dragon, and/or Optimal Optimus should retain some organic components, especially in robot mode. If anything, you'd think Megs would be less likely to be at all organic, given big (i.e. original) Megs' aversion to organic life. Heck, he survives a trip on the hull of a ship through both Transwarp and normal space - seems kinda full-on for organic parts to handle. Then again, Waspinator manages it, but then again that's also Waspinator.

So, what do people think? Is Optimal Optimus part-organic after all? Is BW Megs all-mechanical, and the writers of BM just didn't think about it/ignored it so they could make Megs go all emo/space-crazy? Is it just some 'mysterious Cybertronian technology' thing? Did a wizard do it? Am I being stupid for even thinking about a TF cartoon with any eye towards logic and/or consistency, even one as well-written as Beast Wars?

[griffin]

The writers just did the best they could with the toys Hasbro gave them... Ideally it would have been good to be consistent with that plot element, as well as the whole Transmetal concept itself, but I applaud Ditillio and Forward for what they did end up giving us.

Besides, these plot inconsistencies give us fans something to talk about, to make it more interesting dissecting the stories.

[Hursticon]

My line of thinking is that Megs was only disliking of Organics with Beast Machines, as he seemed to actively enjoy both of his T-Rex & Dragon forms; Only with the advent of Beast Machines throwing out 3 Seasons worth of narrative did he begin to "Hate" organics - At least that's what I thought.

It's an interesting question as to why he ended up more of an Organic Dragon (Not that I'm complaining, the toy is beautiful).
Perhaps it could be based more so on what is at the "Laser-core" of a particular Spark and hence manifesting itself accordingly?

Original Megatron was a maniacal dictator, bent on the conquest of the Universe whereas Prime was a leader who's own spark had been heavily influenced/mutated by those that had previously held the Matrix.
Maybe because of these influences "Evil" manifests itself as a Beast & "Good" the form of a/the divine being, as this particular being is Primus and all Cybertronians are supposedly made in his image (Transforming Anthropomorphic Vehicles, initially), the end result is far more Vehicular/Mechanical in nature?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Also, I have 2 more.
Are Hasbro G1 Optimus' smokestacks molded blue then painted silver?

My G1 Prime has them in the same shade as his legs, with (increasing less as time goes on) silver paint.

The writers just did the best they could with the toys Hasbro gave them... Ideally it would have been good to be consistent with that plot element, as well as the whole Transmetal concept itself, but I applaud Ditillio and Forward for what they did end up giving us.

Besides, these plot inconsistencies give us fans something to talk about, to make it more interesting dissecting the stories.

Oh yeah, no disrespect to Ditillio and Forward intended, it just suddenly struck me as interesting/odd is all and I wanted to see what people thought. Looking at TM2 Megs he doesn't seem to have any necessarily organic parts (in the same way as Optimal Optimus' gorilla chest is organically styled but doesn't seem organic per se), but then it becomes this big thing in BM.

My line of thinking is that Megs was only disliking of Organics with Beast Machines, as he seemed to actively enjoy both of his T-Rex & Dragon forms; Only with the advent of Beast Machines throwing out 3 Seasons worth of narrative did he begin to "Hate" organics - At least that's what I thought.

It's an interesting question as to why he ended up more of an Organic Dragon (Not that I'm complaining, the toy is beautiful).
Perhaps it could be based more so on what is at the "Laser-core" of a particular Spark and hence manifesting itself accordingly?

That's sort of what I was thinking, except that G1/old-school Megs did show an aversion towards organics and BW Megs (as opposed to BM Megs, who I maintain got driven a little space-crazy by being strapped to the outside of ship during a presumably long transwarp trip) seemed not to care either way (or to put it differently was typically pragmatic about the whole thing - power is power no matter whether it's organic or mechanical), whereas both Prime and Primal show a fondness/appreciation for organics. Based on the sparks involved, you'd think if anyone was going to lose their organic side it'd be Megatron^2, not Optimus^2.

Original Megatron was a maniacal dictator, bent on the conquest of the Universe whereas Prime was a leader who's own spark had been heavily influenced/mutated by those that had previously held the Matrix.
Maybe because of these influences "Evil" manifests itself as a Beast & "Good" the form of a/the divine being, as this particular being is Primus and all Cybertronians are supposedly made in his image (Transforming Anthropomorphic Vehicles, initially), the end result is far more Vehicular/Mechanical in nature?

I'll sorta pay that what with the pseudo-Biblical Covenant of Primus stuff, and I can think of a few various fanwank scenarios that'd sorta work myself. I'd still like to hear Verno's take on all this though.

[GoktimusPrime]

So, I was just thinking...
In BW, Transmetals have mechanical alt-modes and organic elements in robot modes. Transmetal 2s have both mechanical and organic component melded in a more 'integrated' style.
TM Optimus Primal (in robot mode) shares/melds his Spark with Optimus Prime (entirely mechanical/no organic components) and - so far as I can see - becomes an entirely mechanical form. We see inside him in robot mode (the formerly partially-organic part) and everything's 100% machine.
So, it's not unreasonable to assume that the upgrade that comes from mingling sparks between a Transmetal and a 'guzzler' (or even just an exceptionally powerful-sparked guzzler such as Prime and original Megatron) creates a more powerful but also entirely mechanical form.

But then BW Megs mingles sparks with old-school Megs - who is 100% robot, and not that keen on organics unlike Prime. BW Megs is in robot mode as Primal was when he mingled sparks with Prime, i.e. he has a certain amount of organic components. He gets a size-and-power upgrade, much like Optimal Optimus. Yet apparently BW Megs' dragon form, created in the same manner with the same concoction of organic and inorganic parts as Optimal Optimus, is part organic (as becomes a major plot point in that terrible dream that never happened Beast Machines).

Surely, all things being equal, BW Megs should also be an entirely robotic dragon, and/or Optimal Optimus should retain some organic components, especially in robot mode. If anything, you'd think Megs would be less likely to be at all organic, given big (i.e. original) Megs' aversion to organic life. Heck, he survives a trip on the hull of a ship through both Transwarp and normal space - seems kinda full-on for organic parts to handle. Then again, Waspinator manages it, but then again that's also Waspinator.

So, what do people think? Is Optimal Optimus part-organic after all? Is BW Megs all-mechanical, and the writers of BM just didn't think about it/ignored it so they could make Megs go all emo/space-crazy? Is it just some 'mysterious Cybertronian technology' thing? Did a wizard do it? Am I being stupid for even thinking about a TF cartoon with any eye towards logic and/or consistency, even one as well-written as Beast Wars?

Possible difference: Optimus Prime's Spark was housed in (or in contact with) the Matrix, whereas Megatron's was not. Perhaps it was contact with a Spark that had been imbued with Matrix energies that made Optimus Primal mutate differently from Megatron.

That... and because Hasbro made these toys and told Mainframe to chuck 'em into the show. I remember when I first bought Optimal Optimus... I thought it was a great toy, but I'd never see it in the show because:
a) Optimus Primal had already become a Transmetal, and a second Quantum Surge would be silly -- especially if it only re-Transmetallised one Transformer.
b) Optimal Optimus is a stupid name and would just sound silly on the show anyway.
But full credit to the writers for actually making it work! Involving the G1 Transformers and Optimus Prime was an awesome idea, and they just kept calling him "Optimus Primal," although Megatron initially referred to him as an "Optimal Optimus" to reference the name of the toy just that once.

It was a shame that Peter Cullen refused to do a cameo voice role in that episode as the writers had initially hoped for. The scene where Primal returns Prime's Spark and we see Optimus Prime awaken for a few seconds -- apparently they wanted Peter Cullen to make him say a line (like "Till All Are One" or something, I dunno) before dozing off again... but Cullen refused. Not because he disliked the idea or the show, but because of industrial relations/union issues.

Also, I have 2 more.
Are Hasbro G1 Optimus' smokestacks molded blue then painted silver?

Not painted, but [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_metallizing]vacuum metallised/url]. That's the problem with chrome -- looks great, but once it chips you can't fix it (unless you have the means to vacuum metallise plastic, which most folks don't). I've used mithral silver model paint to touch up chipped chrome, but it doesn't look the same (but it's the closest you can find out of model paints). I've heard of some people who have used chrome spray paint (i.e. the kind of paints used for touching up cars) - so I guess that must look close to actual chrome, but I've never tried it myself.

And the second, do tak/tom, hasbro or toyco still have the mold for Shockwave. Coz it's getting really hard to find one iin good condition.

I'd say odds are they don't.

[Verno]

So, I was just thinking...
In BW, Transmetals have mechanical alt-modes and organic elements in robot modes. Transmetal 2s have both mechanical and organic component melded in a more 'integrated' style.
TM Optimus Primal (in robot mode) shares/melds his Spark with Optimus Prime (entirely mechanical/no organic components) and - so far as I can see - becomes an entirely mechanical form. We see inside him in robot mode (the formerly partially-organic part) and everything's 100% machine.
So, it's not unreasonable to assume that the upgrade that comes from mingling sparks between a Transmetal and a 'guzzler' (or even just an exceptionally powerful-sparked guzzler such as Prime and original Megatron) creates a more powerful but also entirely mechanical form.

But then BW Megs mingles sparks with old-school Megs - who is 100% robot, and not that keen on organics unlike Prime. BW Megs is in robot mode as Primal was when he mingled sparks with Prime, i.e. he has a certain amount of organic components. He gets a size-and-power upgrade, much like Optimal Optimus. Yet apparently BW Megs' dragon form, created in the same manner with the same concoction of organic and inorganic parts as Optimal Optimus, is part organic (as becomes a major plot point in that terrible dream that never happened Beast Machines).

Surely, all things being equal, BW Megs should also be an entirely robotic dragon, and/or Optimal Optimus should retain some organic components, especially in robot mode. If anything, you'd think Megs would be less likely to be at all organic, given big (i.e. original) Megs' aversion to organic life. Heck, he survives a trip on the hull of a ship through both Transwarp and normal space - seems kinda full-on for organic parts to handle. Then again, Waspinator manages it, but then again that's also Waspinator.

So, what do people think? Is Optimal Optimus part-organic after all? Is BW Megs all-mechanical, and the writers of BM just didn't think about it/ignored it so they could make Megs go all emo/space-crazy? Is it just some 'mysterious Cybertronian technology' thing? Did a wizard do it? Am I being stupid for even thinking about a TF cartoon with any eye towards logic and/or consistency, even one as well-written as Beast Wars?

There's one very important aspect that you almost touched on, but didn't quite get to:

BW Megatron becomes a TM2, instead of remaining a TM.

Every other TM2 (Cheetor, Dinobot and Blackarachnia) all have some contact with the Transmetal Driver in attaining a new form.

But Megs doesn't.

You could speculate that perhaps BW Megatron did some initial testing of the Driver on himself, before attempting to create Dinobot II, and thus had residual energy within him when he took on G1 Megatron's Spark.

And as for melding Sparks - I see it more as BW Optimus and BW Megs simply taking a 2nd Spark into their body, rather than the Sparks merging. In Optimal Situation, we see G1 Prime's Spark sitting in the cockpit section of Primal's form, where we later see Primal's Spark housed within his body. I'm of the opinion that Sparks would remain separate of each other.

Are Transmetals actually Organic? There's no doubt the robot modes of TM forms have organic motifs, with Cheetor and Primal appearing slightly furry. Rattrap however has no such detailing - all he has is the appearance of muscles or musculature - which is also seen on Optimal Optimus beast chest. So the argument could be made that yes Optimal Optimus is still retaining some organic nature.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

And as for melding Sparks - I see it more as BW Optimus and BW Megs simply taking a 2nd Spark into their body, rather than the Sparks merging. In Optimal Situation, we see G1 Prime's Spark sitting in the cockpit section of Primal's form, where we later see Primal's Spark housed within his body. I'm of the opinion that Sparks would remain separate of each other.

I would have thought so too, but Megs is pretty clear about 'mingling' Sparks and Primal takes OPs spark into his own Spark chamber...until his body finishes upgrading anyway.
It's quite possible (albeit just more fanwank/conjecture) that the sparks of OP and Megs (being both 'guzzler' sparks and exceptionally powerful ones at that) mingle initially until their host bodies are capable of holding them and then return to being separate once it's 'safe' to do so.

Are Transmetals actually Organic? There's no doubt the robot modes of TM forms have organic motifs, with Cheetor and Primal appearing slightly furry. Rattrap however has no such detailing - all he has is the appearance of muscles or musculature - which is also seen on Optimal Optimus beast chest. So the argument could be made that yes Optimal Optimus is still retaining some organic nature.

Again, my first thoughts are the same as yours, but the TMs do apparently have a little bit of organic matter in robot mode - even if it is mostly chest musculature.

There's one very important aspect that you almost touched on, but didn't quite get to:

BW Megatron becomes a TM2, instead of remaining a TM.

Every other TM2 (Cheetor, Dinobot and Blackarachnia) all have some contact with the Transmetal Driver in attaining a new form.

But Megs doesn't.

You could speculate that perhaps BW Megatron did some initial testing of the Driver on himself, before attempting to create Dinobot II, and thus had residual energy within him when he took on G1 Megatron's Spark.

Nice...that provides a decent explanation. When the not-quite cloning device explodes in Feral Scream part 1 Megs is present but Optimus isn't. After the Transwarp wave energy having an effect on existing- and protoform-Transformers (at least Predacons and Maximals) that works re. 'infecting' Megs, albeit on a cloning-machine VS Planet-Buster scale.
I salute thee sirrah.

[Verno]

I'm still not sold on the 'mingling' or 'mixing' of Sparks - I'm certain they'd remain separate at all times.

'All is as it should be' scene from Nemesis Part 2

G1 Megs' Spark is being held (perhaps controlled), but clearly separate from BW Megatron's.

I say 'perhaps controlled' because G1 Megs seems to exhibit no influence on BW Megs, unlike Starscream who took over Waspinator head to toe.

Although, you could speculate that given the bodies of G1 Prime and Megs were in stasis, and their Lasercores perhaps offline, they couldn't influence their host's bodies.

So much speculation!

It's all about coming up with a series of rules that answer the unanswered questions for yourself I guess.

[GoktimusPrime]

BW Megatron becomes a TM2, instead of remaining a TM.

Every other TM2 (Cheetor, Dinobot and Blackarachnia) all have some contact with the Transmetal Driver in attaining a new form.

But Megs doesn't.

Neither did Tigerhawk. His TM2 body was created purely by the Vok without any apparent contact with a Transmetal Driver. It seems that the Deluxe and Mega TM2s were created by the driver, but the Ultras had different origins (again, really because Hasbro wanted them in the show -- remember that this part of Season 3 was written in a rush because Hasbro had ordered the cancellation of the series and the writers were trying to wrap up loose ends _while_ trying to introduce the last batch of toys at the same time).

And as for melding Sparks - I see it more as BW Optimus and BW Megs simply taking a 2nd Spark into their body, rather than the Sparks merging. In Optimal Situation, we see G1 Prime's Spark sitting in the cockpit section of Primal's form, where we later see Primal's Spark housed within his body. I'm of the opinion that Sparks would remain separate of each other.

Yeah, I agree. Megatron does explicitly say "mingle,", which can be synonymous with merging, but another accepted meaning is "to take part with others" or "to come into close association/contact with." And it's that latter meaning that he really meant -- the G1 and BW Sparks came in close contact with each other, but didn't actually physically merge.

But I think the reason why Optimus Primal got a more "massive" upgrade was because he mingled his Spark not only with a G1 Titan like Optimus Prime, but because said Spark had been in direct contact with the Matrix -- and he also transferred Prime's Spark directly from the Matrix vessel. G1 Megatron's Spark, while also a mighty Titan, wasn't in contact with the Matrix. I think that could explain why he didn't upgrade into an "Optimal Megatron."

Are Transmetals actually Organic? There's no doubt the robot modes of TM forms have organic motifs, with Cheetor and Primal appearing slightly furry. Rattrap however has no such detailing - all he has is the appearance of muscles or musculature - which is also seen on Optimal Optimus beast chest. So the argument could be made that yes Optimal Optimus is still retaining some organic nature.

Optimal Optimus' body has no organic motifs on it at all, unlike other Transmetals. His robot and beast modes are completely robotic/mechanical in appearance.

It's quite possible (albeit just more fanwank/conjecture) that the sparks of OP and Megs (being both 'guzzler' sparks and exceptionally powerful ones at that) mingle initially until their host bodies are capable of holding them and then return to being separate once it's 'safe' to do so.

He called them "Archaic Energon guzzlers," i.e. the Autobot and Decepticons are less fuel efficient than Maximals and Predacons (similar to how people might call a car with poor fuel economy a "petrol guzzler"). Remember that in G1 Micromasters were created as means of conserving fuel, and in Beast Wars the Maximals and Predacons are shown to be of approximate Micromaster size, and implied as being more fuel efficient (if Autobots/Decepticons are fuel guzzlers in their eyes). In the Wreckers comic we saw that, at the end of the Great War, Cybertronians like Rodimus, Arcee, Skywarp, Ravage etc. underwent the Maximal/Predacon Upgrade - which reduced them to the size of Micromasters and improved their fuel economy.

I say 'perhaps controlled' because G1 Megs seems to exhibit no influence on BW Megs, unlike Starscream who took over Waspinator head to toe.

Although, you could speculate that given the bodies of G1 Prime and Megs were in stasis, and their Lasercores perhaps offline, they couldn't influence their host's bodies.

Starscream had an indestructible mutant Spark -- its properties are unique and can't really be compared with others (hence why Maximal scientists attempted to replicate it when they made Protoform X). For whatever reason, Starscream's Spark can never be extinguished or returned to the AllSpark/Matrix. It only wanders aimlessly as a ghost.

[SuspectimusPrime]

I'm still not sold on the 'mingling' or 'mixing' of Sparks - I'm certain they'd remain separate at all times.

I agree, BW's writers would be inviting too much controversy to hint that the G1 Sparks exhibited even an inkling of influence by Sparks from the future (see that Futurama episode where Fry travels back in time to the 1960's? ).

I say 'perhaps controlled' because G1 Megs seems to exhibit no influence on BW Megs, unlike Starscream who took over Waspinator head to toe.

Although, you could speculate that given the bodies of G1 Prime and Megs were in stasis, and their Lasercores perhaps offline, they couldn't influence their host's bodies.

So much speculation!

It's all about coming up with a series of rules that answer the unanswered questions for yourself I guess.

Perhaps, in Waspinator's case, Starscream was able to exert full dominance over Waspinator's body because Starscream's immortal Spark was so much powerful compared to Waspinator's Spark. A bit like those junk possessed by ghost movies (sorry no particular title comes to mind, just movies I watched as a kid in the 90's). So in G1 Megs/BW Megs' situation, you have two very powerful sparks where the visitor isn't able to dominate over the incumbent's body.

Also, just watched a SBS documentary on hypnosis yesterday, about how weaker minded individuals are more open and susceptible to suggestion, and thus more easily controlled by hypnosis.