The Random Transformers Thoughts Thread

[UltimateGalvatron]

I just put it together in my head: My dad is a GEE WUNNER. He doesn't like any modern Transformers toys, only G1s, because 'modern ones don't have enough diecast' and thinks all forms of media that aren't G1 suck (even the comics, he only likes Marvels ones.) He is also a 'Trukk not Munky', as he hates Beast Wars with a passion.

[Jaxius._]

I just put it together in my head: My dad is a GEE WUNNER. He doesn't like any modern Transformers toys, only G1s, because 'modern ones don't have enough diecast' and thinks all forms of media that aren't G1 suck (even the comics, he only likes Marvels ones.) He is also a 'Trukk not Munky', as he hates Beast Wars with a passion.

We are the next generation
We are the future

[UltimateGalvatron]

We are the next generation
We are the future

We got the Touch....

We got the Pooooowwwwerrrrrrrrr..........

[griffin]

Initially I was surprised to see a Combiner Wars Gen1 Leader Megatron at ToysRUs the other day, but closer inspection it looked to be a returned toy... minus missile. (it wasn't in the launcher). Hopefully it is in the bottom of the box for whomever ends up buying it.

[GoktimusPrime]

I just put it together in my head: My dad is a GEE WUNNER. He doesn't like any modern Transformers toys, only G1s, because 'modern ones don't have enough diecast' and thinks all forms of media that aren't G1 suck (even the comics, he only likes Marvels ones.) He is also a 'Trukk not Munky', as he hates Beast Wars with a passion.

G1 vs modern toys
Both G1 and modern TFs are a mixed bag. Excluding adult-centric lines like MP and just looking at 'general release figures,' there are awesome figures like Generations, but also poorer figures like RiD2015 and AoE. But G1Gee-Wun had its ups and downs too. Sure, we had awesome figures like Optimus Prime, Soundwave, the Decepticon Jets, the Autobot Cars etc., but we also had some ordinary figures (even by the standards of the day) like Windcharger, Gears, Ironhide, Ratchet, the Jumpstarters (massive shelfwarmers), Warpath (one of the worst pegwarmers of the Gee Wun era) etc. But on the whole, modern TFs have definitely evolved beyond G1. There are so many features on modern toys which were just a pipe dream during G1, including:
* Better detailed sculpting
* Tampographed and painted details instead of stickers (Arms Micron, anyone? )
* Robot modes are actually action figures with typically 9 points of articulation.
* Far better durability and physical survivability. G1 toys broke far more easily.
Having said that, one thing that I miss from most pre-2007 lines is having the toys being developed by toy designers, not by animators. I've never been a fan of toys being developed as screen characters first for toy designers to then 'translate' as toys. I much prefer for the toys to be made first, then have animators or artists render them as images. We do get this with Classicsverse, but not so much with the more kid-focused lines like Animated, Prime and RiD2015. Some of my favourite toys from these lines have been ones which never appeared in the cartoon, and that'd be because they were designed as toys for being toys, not as adaptations of a screen character (e.g. Arms Micron Frumble).

Die-cast metal
There are pros and cons with die-cast vs plastic, as has been discussed in more detail on the die-cast metal thread. But I think that UltraMarginal raised some good points about the disadvantages of using die-cast metal here.

Media: cartoons
As with the toys, it's a mixed bag. But on the whole, I'd say that Animated and TF Prime are on par with the G1 cartoon. With a small number of exceptions, these shows typically lack character drive and are more based on caricatures. Both the post-movie seasons of G1 and RiD2015 are attempts at maturing the series, but I do think that G1's Seasons 3 and 4 actually did a better job (in spite of having Wheelie and Daniel ). The tone of RiD2015 feels like a big emotional step backwards after TFP took steps at maturing the show in Seasons 2 & 3, as well as Predacons Rising. I was looking forward to seeing a TFP sequel pick up from this and run forward with it (as G1 S3-4 did after TFTM), but I just don't think that it did.

Media: comics
Marvel vs IDW G1... oooh, that's a tough one, as I actually really like both for different reasons, and both have their strengths and weaknesses over each other. IMHO...
* Marvel's comics were definitely written for a younger audience, as it was essentially created to sell toys. Having said that, on the whole Marvel did a pretty bang up job in creating some memorable character-driven story arcs. Remember that the G1 Transformers' tech spec bios were written by Marvel.
* Marvel worked under relatively greater pressure from Hasbro than IDW, because Hasbro would often dictate which toys that they wanted Marvel to remove or introduce into the comics. Toys that were no longer in production were removed, new toys were introduced. So writers would sometimes write big kill fests to take out old toys (e.g. Underbase Saga, the Time Wars etc.), and then introduce new toy--, uh, characters. Having said that, I really like having a toy-driven comic series. One thing that sometimes bugs me with IDW is seeing recurring characters and not having toys of them to collect and play along with! Where are my toys for Rung and Atomiser?! Okay, I know that G1 had its fair share of comic and cartoon exclusive characters too (e.g. Impactor, Alpha Trion, Xaaron etc.), and yes, I did often long for having toys of these characters. But back in the 80s, there was a more limited number of toys to draw up to populate the story, and inventing characters was a necessity because you wanted a character that you could freely keep or remove from the comics without concerning Hasbro. IDW are, by and large, not working under these conditions. They have 30 odd years' worth of toys to draw from! Thousands of figures that they could use! Actually, I'm pretty stoked to see Hubcap make a recent appearance in the IDW comics, as he had zero appearance in either the Marvel comics or Sunbow cartoon!
* IDW comics are definitely more mature and deeper than Marvel ever was. 'Good' and 'evil' are just illusions. Every side and every fighter thinks that they are the "good guys," which is a far more realistic way at looking at things. Nobody is ever motivated by consciously thinking that they're in the wrong!
* IDW comics also make far better allegories and metaphors with several things IRL, including society, government, religion etc. Yes, G1 touched on this as well, even the G1 cartoon, but not nearly to the same level as IDW. G1 had to be more subtle because they were aimed at a younger audience, whereas IDW are much more open about it, and as such, can take it to a much higher level than Marvel or Sunbow ever could. G1 comics were bound by the controversial and now defunct Comics Code Authority.
* A lot of the art in IDW are computer enhanced, and that's great, but I still really love a lot of the greater reliability on hand-drawing in the Marvel Comics. Unfortunately the US comics did suffer from rather bland colouring by Nel Yomtov, and also a really "low res/pixelated" quality of print and cheap newspaper-grade paper which was typical for American comics at the time. But the UK comics used a far higher quality of print and better glossy paper. While not all UK comics were in colour, those that were enjoyed a notably superior level of colouring -- hand painted colours and visual effects! And there were some really great artists that vividly brought the Transformers to life, like Geoff Senior.
* TRANS-FOOOORM! The Transformers more often transformed when they needed to in the Marvel Comics! The IDW comics has a lot more running around... do these Transformers forget that they can become much more faster moving cars and planes? Quick! Cyclonus to the rescue! On foot!

Spike: "Why do you transform into cars and things?"
Trailbreaker: "Simple, disguise! Besides, it sure beats walking."
(More Than Meets The Eye)

* Marvel writers used gooder (sic) English! I'm sick of finding basic and recurring errors in the IDW comics.

Hating Beast Wars
Guh... the online fandom was rife with debates over the merit of Beast Wars around 1996-98. Detractors of Beast Wars ultimately lost this argument. Hearing people still trying to detract it today is weird... like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. You've already lost the fight, you silly sod! ("What are you going to do, bleed on me?") But here's some ammunition you can use in your home debates.
+ Transformers would probably NOT exist today if not for Beast Wars and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The Transformers franchise was practically dead in the water by 1995. Beast Wars came out in 1996. Transformers became the 3rd best selling action figure line in the USA by 1997. Check and mate. And Hasbro reissued many Gee Wun era toys in the early 90s, then reused many Gee Wun moulds for Generation 2. Our precious Gee Wun moulds failed to revitalise the brand.
+ All the advantages about modern TFs over G1s came from Beast Wars! BW standardised the idea of Transformers as action figures. Highly detailed w/ superior paint apps, self-contained weaponry/gestalt components and articulation for poseability and in robot mode -- Beast Wars, baby! Heck, even some of the design features still used in Generations and Masterpiece today can be seen in some Beast Wars toys. They were that ahead of their time. And while many CHUGUR toys completely outclass their G1 counterparts, I've yet to see a CHUGUR toy that I considered to be superior to their original BW versions (relative to their size class/price point).
+ Many G1 toys were so blocky and ungainly, that G1 artists had significant modification to make them look cooler on screen or on pages. The reverse was true for Beast Wars; the toys were actually 3D scanned, and the scans were then used as the basis for rendering CGI models to be used in the cartoon. Yes, creative licensing was used, but on the whole, BW TFs on screen were relatively more toy-accurate than most G1s. Even Blackarachnia is a much closer approximation of her toy than say G1 Ironhide or Ratchet. Blackarachnia most has deformed body proportions (to make her look more feminine as well as different from Tarantulas), but is otherwise actually reasonably toy-accurate.
+ Beast Wars is the best Transformers story ever written for a screen media IMHO. There is just no contest. It was written to appeal to both child and adult audiences alike -- lots of cool transforming action mixed with character-driven story arcs. I wish the IDW comics would inject a bit more transforming action. There's no reason why you can't have both; one of my favourite moments from when Rodimus' team were pursuing Brainstorm through time, was when Cyclonus quickly punched it into jet mode in a tight chase to catch Brainstorm, only for him to just miss Brainstorm! The action complemented the intense drama quite well! This is what I really like about BW -- awesome action accompanying great drama. The Bay movies can suffer from having lots of awesome action, but not enough character-driven drama, but sometimes I feel that the IDW comics can sit on the other end of this spectrum and be too character-driven drama without enough transforming action to go along with it. And there are plenty of opportunities for it. I often read through the IDW comics and think, "He could've done that in alt mode. Probably would've been easier."
+ Beast Wars makes G1 better! e.g. one common question was about just how Transformers were living creatures. BW gave us a definitive answer through something known as a Spark. This is still used in Transformers lore today, even IDW! Why did Starscream become a ghost and haunt other Transformers while others like Optimus Prime never did? Beast Wars answers this! Why were Micromasters created? Okay, G1 answered this, but Beast Wars expanded on this!

[Starscream77]

Gok it is not a debate if someone hates something, just because your opinion is as above in the Great Wall of Text doesn't mean people have to like it

I am not a Beast Wars fan but that doesn't mean I am wrong. Good on it for bringing TFs back but if that is the main point then we better thank Michael Bay as well

[GoktimusPrime]

I am not a Beast Wars fan but that doesn't mean I am wrong.

I never said that. You don't have to like Beast Wars, but that's different from hating it (and thus rubbishing it). All I'm saying is that fans ought to respect Beast Wars and the amazing and continuing contribution that it's made to the brand. But this doesn't mean you have to like it, you can respect something that you don't necessarily like.

Good on it for bringing TFs back but if that is the main point then we better thank Michael Bay as well

While the Bay movies definitely did give the Transformers brand a massive boost (doubling toy sales between 2007-08), it did NOT revitalise the Transformers brand. The key difference is that if Beast Wars had never come along, the brand would have died off. If the Michael Bay movie never came along, the brand would have continued to thrive, because it was already thriving long before the movies came along. The live action movies are a product of the brand's new success, not the cause of it. And remember that Hasbro were prepared for the first movie's failure (because at the time nobody knew if it would succeed or not), which is why they had Transformers Animated up their sleeves (with a complete opposite aesthetic to the live action film; and remember that Animated Bumblebee was originally meant to be Hot Shot). Okay, the brand probably wouldn't be as massive and mainstream as it is now without the movies, but it wouldn't have died off.

By the early to mid 00s, HasTak were already well aware that the children of the 80s had become adults with disposable incomes. HasTak had already begun exploiting this with several different "high end" series that targeted the niche adult collector market, such as: G1 reissues, Binaltech, Masterpiece, Smallest Transforming Transformers, PVCs figurines etc. Even the mainstream brand was still pretty strong in the years leading up to the first live action film, with things like the Unicron Trilogy, as well as the Classics line which simultaneously appealed to kids and adults alike.

Also, I personally don't think that the movie toys have revolutionised the way that Transformers toys are made today. IMHO late G2 and BW toys that introduced the idea of Transformers as action figures was like the TF toy equivalent of splitting the atom.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Watching S4 of G1. For someone who has 'developed their mental powers but let their body become decrepit and useless' Lord Zarak is sporting some major muscle! Looks like he could be an extra on He-Man

[Megatran]

What started out as a god send of combiners by TT & Hasbro, is now taking the piss with all these 'other' combiners.

[Jetfire in the sky]

What started out as a god send of combiners by TT & Hasbro, is now taking the piss with all these 'other' combiners.

LOL!

I've been massively into MP's lately because I have pretty much completed my G1 collection to where I want.
One thought I had today was about MP-09, the new breed if you will. With a new Hot Rod coming out soon I honestly think it's justified.
MP-09 is to far ahead of it's time. Meaning that the ambition outweighed the talent, or another way of putting it the technology didn't match the engineering.
I do like him but I am looking forward to the new guy.