G1 Comic Art

[GoktimusPrime]

This thread is for the discussion of G1 (1984-1992) comic book art and artists, as spawned from this thread.
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Not really. Andrew Wildman nor Geoff Senior rate much in my book.

Yes, but that's your individual opinion. What I'm saying is that, according to the common/general fan consensus as illustrated by annual results from the Trannies year after year after year, the fandom as a collective rate Wildman and Senior as their two favourite artists from G1.

I mean, I personally like Beast Machines, but I recognise that it's just my own individual opinion and that the fandom as a collective doesn't rate it very highly. And if I were going to start talking about my liking of Beast Machines, I would be required to back it up as it would be a bold statement in terms of going against the common consensus.

The TF fandom has expanded since and while the stories from that era are celebrated by fans, I think that there are modern sensibilities at play now and many of the returned fans of the last few years are more inclined to Don Figueroa style than a Senior one.

That's more retro-G1 than actual G1. And none of this stuff existed when the Trannies Awards were conducted. Someone might need to conduct another survey - it would need to be quite extensive (i.e.: across several communities from around the world).

There's been an evolution in Transformers art and I think it would be naive to ignore that. Senior was a product of his times but if he drew modern stuff, that would severely put many like myself off. Maybe its the older fans who will like him but I certainly feel they are creatures of the past.

Yes, but thisroller's thread topic specifies "TF comics in the 80s" (and it would cover the early 90s too as the TF comics did go into 1993), so we need to be looking at comics from that era in context of that era.

Can't stand black and white. I like b&w to look at the artists raw details but generally I do not like buying a B&W unless it fits the book. Transformers needs to explode off the page. They're machines and futuristic. That's part of the appeal. Drab ol' B&W steal the life out of them.

Colour really doesn't help with the colourist is as poor as Nel Yomtov. I would much rather have a well done black and white comic over a poorly coloured comic any day.

It also depends on the artist - some artists' work just looks better in black and white than colour. A good example is the artist from the Transformers G.I. Joe series from Dreamwave that was set during the 2nd World War. I collected the original issues which were coloured and I thought the art looked kinda "messy" to me. Then I saw the reprint in black and white and I gotta say that the black and white version looks beautiful. If not for the fact that I already have the colour version, I would've bought that black and white print.

A lot of mangaka's work look better in black and white too. I remember when manga was just beginning to creep into local comic stores, there were some publishers who felt the need to colour in the English-translated manga... it looked horrid.

And really good colouring doesn't compensate for shoddy artwork... you all know that I'm no fan of Pat Lee's art, but I think Dreamwave did a good job colouring his work. In spite of that I still think his art sucks.

One thing I didnt like much of Wildman's art is that his TF's face were too "liquid" and drooly.

That was actually the fault of one of the inkers. I can't remember his name right now, but yeah, there was this one inker that kept on adding spittle, drool etc. to Wildman's pencilling. WEIRD! There was also another inker that added eyeballs (like, black dots) to José Delbo's pencilling too (making Delbo's already sub-par art look worse)!

Sure they have to evoke a certain emotion but giving them cheekbones and all well, they kinda look like humans with painted faces and battle armour on. He started fine but as the series went more on and on it kinda gotten more Fleshy.

Wildman admits that this is because he never set out to draw robots and during the 80s and early 90s he didn't "enjoy" drawing robots. Wildman was an avid fan of X-Men and became a comic artist so that he could draw super-heroes like X-Men. Then he got hired to draw Transformers - apparently he wasn't keen on the idea, but Furman coaxed him into it. So Wildman decided that he would draw Transformers in his way of drawing comic characters - like X-Men!! That's why his Transformers look so human.

That's one thing Senior does better than Wildman - Senior sees that he's drawing robots, so he sets about the task to make them look like robots.

Having said that, Wildman draws humans better - and especially super-humans. I really love his rendition of the Neo-Knights (he must've loved drawing them).

[Paulbot]

Tastes change with time.

In 1990 when I looked over the US comics I preferred Wildman's art and tried to emulate it. Now I prefer Senior's couple of issues to Wildman's. Although yes the inker could be blamed for some of the things I dislike in Wildman's art: For a robotic race the Transformers got very very messy in the last ten US G1 issues.

Geoff Senior's UK #83 was the first TF comic I ever bought and to this day I think the art in that issue is just wonderful. (It's the one where Megatron leads the Autobots to capture Scourge).

When I was younger I didn't like Will Simpson's more toy-like art in the UK 70s-100s but now when I read "In The National Interest" I think it's actually quite great.

But I expect my tastes to continue to change. They have with all the other comics I read, the artists I thought were hot in 1993 aren't the same style of artists I like now.

[STL]

Yes, but that's your individual opinion. What I'm saying is that, according to the common/general fan consensus as illustrated by annual results from the Trannies year after year after year, the fandom as a collective rate Wildman and Senior as their two favourite artists from G1.

And your opinion happens to be reliant on a set of results rendered irrelevant by the passage of time. There has been a change. If you peruse the deviant art pages, fan art pages and have a look at whose style is more prevalent and attempted to be eptomised these days. Look at the comics themselves. That in itself is anecdotal evidence of what is preferred these days.

Ultimately though i agree entirely what one likes is up to each individual to determine. And since you're old school, I perfectly appreciate that you and Heroic like Senior. However, to label DD's comment as "bold and controversial" is unfair just b/c you have an attachment to that period is unfair. We're all entitled to our opinions - especially when it comes to art as that is a very subjective matter.

Nobody said Senior is or was the best TF artist around, but I think he certainly is one of the best. Modern sensibilities, whatever that may mean, does not overtake the intrinsic beauty of well done art. Sure Figuroa (and Milne and Guidi and etc) are undeniably good, and do art that is really detailed, but their Transformers sorely lack one thing- life. Their Transformers are stiff and lack a lot of the life, energy and potency of Senior's or Wildman's (in the 80s) Transformers. Gok, I'm not sure if you're with me, but to me that is the distinction.

That's one I've heard a lot of. The "life" that Senior brings. I can see that in the sense of the stretched, far more human faces and rounder curves. But to me, Senior sacrificed realism, futuristic feel, and bulkiness. I was horrified when I saw Senior had overtaken the art chores. The TFs did not feel like robots, feel like. I mean you need to look no further than the image of Jazz beneath Bludgeon Gok posted to see what I mean. The legs are cringeworthy. Senior was basically drawing superheroes but with basic instead and disproportionate curves (as on those covers DD posted) at times to create that life you like. But to me as second rate b/c of how awkward and clutsy his art looked childish. But to you that's life, to me that's not.

To me, I find life in modern art of the big, detailed and bold robots, that are closer to the Japanese styles. We obviously disagree but I feel that this modern art has much more power and attraction and am glad that IDW and DW went the way they did. B/c I doubt I would've persisted w/ the comics if they had.

Wildman though evolved I feel. I liked his 2nd War Within series and I had to look twice once to make sure it was him b/c I could not believe this was the same artist from the 90s. His storytelling wasn't great though I'm not sure if that was a function of a rushed plot or the colouring or him. I haven't seen much of his work since but I can say that I'd like to see more of it.

At least to me, modern day TF art while really detailed, had very little life until EJ Su came along.

I don't mind EJ much. I'm not sure if the colouring but to me he actually comes across as very stiff..

[Paulbot]

However, to label DD's comment as "bold and controversial" is unfair just b/c you have an attachment to that period is unfair. We're all entitled to our opinions - especially when it comes to art as that is a very subjective matter.

It was bold and controversial because it was sure to start this debate again, which it did.

[STL]

It was bold and controversial because it was sure to start this debate again, which it did.

The only reason this debate started again was because of that comment. I'm very cool about what people prefer but I didn't think it deserved a response that amounted to "Well you're out of touch with the rest of the fandom since they absolutely adore Senior":

That's a rather... um... bold and controversial statement. Geoff Senior is widely considered to be the best G1 artist alongside Andrew Wildman according to fan votes in the now defunct annual Trannies awards.

I'm in favour of everyone having their preferences but I don't think you need to try and qualify others opinions and preferences. (Especially when it is based on results that are over a decade old).

And that's all DD was saying, it was -his- preference not a bold and controversial statement. Emphasis mine.

Apart from that crushing disappointment I was also a little miffed that for one issue of my short run they switched to another (and inferior) artist for the battle with Unicron.

But on this topic, I agree, art is evolving and preference will evolve too. I love the G1 Animation style but I doubt that would hold up to today's modern animation very much which is unfortunate as I really liked its classic feel

[TheDirtyDigger]

I love the G1 Animation style but I doubt that would hold up to today's modern animation

Apologies for going off topic here but what I find disappointing about animation is for along time they've always been able to do great stuff.
The Superman cartoon by the Fleischer brothers from the 1940's is fantastically animated as was Akira in the 80's. I wish they had have done the G1 cartoon to such a high standard so that it could 'stand the test of time'.
While it's not bad (apart from some forgettable episodes) it doesn't compare to some modern animation....when it always could have.


Back on topic and every time I walk into my local comic shop I am so tempted to purchase some of the Titan books or other G1 compilations but I always hold back because I find the art and colouring so off-putting that I believe I won't enjoy the story as a whole.
I'd love them to 'digitally remaster' the whole series.

[Paulbot]

I'd love them to 'digitally remaster' the whole series.

An "Absolute Transformers" something like the "Absolute Sandman" books? That'd be cool.

I have a word doc on my computer from about 1997 detailing which panels would be changed in a "special edition" reprint of Marvel's first issue (like the SW special editions) . It included a blanket "TFs redrawn throughout to match Animation models"

[i_amtrunks]

G2 was my first taste of Transformers comics, and I loved both Wildman and Senior's work in that series, each artist brings something to the book that the other does not.

The biggest gripe I have with the G1 Marvel US series was nothing to do with the artists, both have their merits and detractions, it was the substandard inker/colourer Yomtov, who has got to be the only Marvel colourist who is both colour blind and has an IQ under 50. How else could he have screwed up so much so often?

[GoktimusPrime]

By "bold and controversial" I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong or 'out of touch' with your opinions, STL and TDD. Simply that it was different from the general consensus - and often when you do voice opinions that go against the general consensus it tends to start debate. And as Paulbot pointed out, it's precisely what has happened here. There was no negative connotation implied by it though.

For example, my own opinion of Beast Machines is 'controversial' because I actually really like it. But I know that, generally speaking, the fandom doesn't. So I know that if I ever voice my liking for Beast Machines I need to be careful to back it up because I know that I am going against the opinion of the majority of the people in the fandom. It's not to say that my opinion is "wrong" - there's really no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" opinion when it comes to this sort of thing... but I will admit that I am amongst a minority of fans when it comes to being in the Beast Machines "fan club."

Likewise yours and TDD's opinions are perfectly valid... I was merely saying that your opinions do differ from what the majority of the fandom appears to feel. Now the Trannies Awards haven't been held by Rob Jung for several years now, so it's quite possible that tastes have changed. Mind you, the Trannies Awards did have separate voting categories for artists, e.g. Favourite G1 artist, Favourite G2 artist, Favourite All-Time artist etc., so while the results for "Favourite All-Time artist" may have changed I'm not sure if it would have for "Favourite G1 artist" since guys like Figueroa, Su etc. aren't technically G1-era artists (but retro-G1 artists). Trannies never made the distinction as retro-G1 didn't exist at the time, but I think it would only be fair that if there was another poll held that they be separated into the two different categories.

If someone were to come along and say "G1 totally sucks," or even "Beast Wars totally sucks" then that person would be making controversial statements as it goes against what the majority fandom believes in. It doesn't mean that the person isn't entitled to that opinion, but if you are going to make such statements then I think there is an expectation to justify what you're saying.

If someone says "G1 was the best!" then nobody really cares if you back it up or not as it's a commonly agreed upon consensus, but if you say "G1 is the worst," then yeah... it would create debate.

Again, never meant to put down anybody's opinions - sorry if I came across that way.

The Trannies results may be dated, but it's all I have to cite. Afaik nobody else has conducted a survey on a similar scale to garner fandom opinion on TF comic artists since the terminationof the Trannies. We could speculate what current trends may be, but it would be a moot point unless we have access to more up-to-date data.

Furthermore, I'm not saying that it's wrong to compare G1 and contemporary art - although that is beyond the scope of this thread as I've specified it only for 1984-92 era TF art (so if you really want to do it please do it elsewhere).

[liegeprime]

The biggest gripe I have with the G1 Marvel US series was nothing to do with the artists, both have their merits and detractions, it was the substandard inker/colourer Yomtov, who has got to be the only Marvel colourist who is both colour blind and has an IQ under 50. How else could he have screwed up so much so often?

Yeah He often just colored the background bot in a single sweep of colors, LAAAZZYYYYY!