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in other words if stays the same character yes it counts but if you are repainting and slighlty customising a figure to be a different character then no it would not count e.g. Hot Rod into Wildrider because then it wouldnt be a HasTak official product or repaintQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Pretty much, yes. :)
How are Music Label Frenzy and Rumble counted? As 0, 1 or 2?
haha..might have to split them!!! pityQuote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
They count as two individuals even though they're connected... think of them as conjoined twins. ;)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...stuckonyou.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by loophole
See, this seems weird to me - we allow doubles. I mean, if I have two Sideswipes and repaint one as a Red Alert, either way that should count as two. Why does adding some paint applications to a Sideswipe (which does count) make it no longer a countable toy? At worst, it's a Sideswipe with some paint on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
This is a very philosophical thread - what is the qualia of a Transformer? I think we are finding that these discussions are very useful.
Yeah I would count a kitbased based on a Transformer toy, for example: "I have two Universe Sunstreakers, one is repainted as Breakdown". However I wouldn't count "Machine Man toy Leader-1 repainted as Starscream" because although it's meant to be a TF character it's a not a TF toy.
Edit: I realise by this post I might be in danger of prolonging a discussion that maybe should be in another thread, leaving this thread to just deal with questions about articles previously democratically voted on...
Well, I see this particular point as still being under discussion in search of consensus. Gok has made a assertion about what he thinks, and some other people have made other opinions. I don't see this point as one of 'settled law' at this point. None of the articles at present make specific reference to kitbashes/repaints.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
If it's made by HasTak, it meets Articles 1 and it counts. If it's a multiple, it meets Article 10 and it counts. For the purposes of counting, the name we call it is irrelevant. I'm sure most of us refer to Universe 2.0 Tankor as Octane, but whatever it's called it counts as one toy.
Therefore, a duplicate Sideswipe repainted as Red Alert meets Articles 1 and 10 and therefore should be counted, regardless of whether it gets called Red Alert or not.
I agree and wonder therefore if Goktimus would prefer this discussed (even voted on?) elsewhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaMan
I would like to resolve this using existing articles before resorting to making a new one because a lot of people feel that there are already too many articles in the UCM already. So let's see if this can be sorted using the existing rules, if we can't come to a resolution then I'll open it for voting.
I believe that kitbashes and custom-character repaints do not count under Article01 because you are essentially re-making a toy into a "new" toy. For example, if you were to modify a Universe Sideswipe into Universe Red Alert, that Universe Red Alert was not made under licence from HasTak. Therefore it does not count. The base toy Sideswipe was manufactured under licence, sure, but once it's modified into a "new" character like Red Alert, then you have re-made it into essentially a new toy-character which wasn't done under licence or with permission from HasTak.
If you repainted a toy to improve on it or touch it up, but still basically kept it as the same character, then that still counts because your modification isn't intended to deviate it away from its original character-intent. For example, when loophole repainted Universe Sunstreaker, it's still Universe Sunstreaker - just with a nicer paint job.
It all boils down to intent. If you modify a toy with the intention that it won't be the same character afterwards, then it is no longer that same toy-character.
That's how I see it anyway... again, if you think that's too ambiguous and would rather see this issue put the poll then I'll go ahead and do it.
I think once we start introducing notions of subjective intent into the UCM it loses its authority as an unambiguous guide to what is or is not countable as a TF. I think a vote on whether to include/exclude kitbashes under Articles 1 and/or 10 would be worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Perhaps we need to have a catch-all clause for future unresolved issues. Something like "A toy counts until an article specifically excludes it". I think a fair cautionary principle should let us include things in cases of doubt, rather than exclude them.
There might also be some scope to edit the presentation of the Articles into "What Counts" and What Doesn't Count", since at the moment they're all kind of mixed in together. This doesn't change the content, just the presentation. I've had a go preliminary draft effort here.
I believe custom repaints have to count... although the chopped up and silly puttied stuff where you're not really looking at an actual TF anymore wouldn't count.
Erm I thought that custom repaints dont count :confused:. Thats why I havent included the custom seeker paintjob done for me by Stencilator. Also that of the custom Ironhide/ratchet repainted from a energon Towline. As far as I understood from reading the UCM guide it's what Gok explained a few replies back on the intent of changing it as its not an official variation done by the company (HasTakTom) thereby nullifying it as an official TF even thought the base toy is an official TF - hence seeker Classic Starscream repainted to Thundercracker - does not count. This was how I know/understood it for 2 years since reading it ( viewing at youtube as well) :confused:
Okay, I'm gonna be polling this.
So many polls...
Poll for counting customs <--continue debate here and cast your votes.
Targetmasters count? (Is a Targetmaster a "nebulan"?)
A Targetmaster is a Transformer whose gun can transform into a humanoid. In Anglophone continuity the gun component is called a Nebulan whereas in Japanese continuity they're Master robots - toywise they're the same thing. So let's take Kup and Recoil for example - Kup is a Targetmaster and Recoil is his Nebulan partner.
As far as the UCM is concerned, the Targetmaster Transformer (e.g.: Kup) counts but the Nebulan partner (e.g.: Recoil) does not count. So if you have Targetmaster Kup, with or without Recoil, it counts as 1.
Click here to learn more about Nebulans.
Article 20 has been added to the Universal Counting Method - see Post #1 on page 1. :)
I wanted to update my collection count to the UCM but there's only one thing that I need to clarify. Does a Targetmaster's partner count separately? I.e. Hot Rod = 1 Transformer and Firebolt = 1 Transformers for a total of 2 Transformers?
Targetmaster partners don't count separately under the UCM.
Cool, thanks dirge. ;)
I can see why we may need to have a UCM if we ever need to gather statistics and do a normalised comparison around the world but it ill never be perfect.
But who really cares what the numbers show anyways?
I mean what is it really designed to measure anyways? your pen*s size? your wallet size? how hardcore a collector you are?
fark that, a guy who spends his whole life collecting hundreds of multiples of just the Spike headmaster or a person who collects only diaclone/microman pre-transformers will have a collection of 0 under the UCM but they are just as devoted and enthusiastic (and even crazy) about transformers as the guy who has 2,000 TFs under the UCM....
In the end we should all be focussing instead on what we are here for in the first place... To discuss, support, promote, celebrate and encourage one another under our mutual fondness for Transformers.
ok, thats enough from me... back to work so i can pay for my TF addiction...
Yeah, that's really the point of it. The whole point of something like this is purely to allow a statistical analysis of collection size. It's not about what you can/can't count, rather a method of direct comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruticus
Yeah for some reason there are fans who try to prove their worth through collection sizes, though. And then arguments arise about what people count... something I've never understood.Quote:
But who really cares what the numbers show anyways?
I mean what is it really designed to measure anyways? your pen*s size? your wallet size? how hardcore a collector you are?
I don't advertise how big my collection is (or isn't!), because it's a personal thing. I don't feel the need to have a bigger collection than anyone else, or the need to catch up to anyone else. I enjoy my hobby and that's the point. Check my profile for a false count of my collection :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirge
you only have 7???
wow, im so ahead of you :P
Someone PMed me this question, but since it contains nothing personal I'll answer it publicly. I've omitted the user's name should s/he wish to remain anonymous. I've also replaced the name of the toy with the name "MacGuffin" and the name of the part in question with the name "Maynard" to further protect his/her privacy.
Article 19 states:Quote:
Hello, I managed to fix my MacGuffin toy. But throughout the standards of the transformers counting method, would my MacGuffin still count as a transformer in the counting law? All that has happened to it was that the Maynard had fallen in to the leg due to worn glue from the past, and the second time from my first repair was the same thing except I accidently applied pressure there so it fell in again.
So just use your common sense judgement here. If you don't think of the toy as a junker, then count it.Quote:
Originally Posted by UCM
I've editted Article08 to clarify that Mighty Muggs don't count. I've also made what I see as a correction - Be@rbricks were previously in Article12 which meant that they count, but I think that if other PVCs, Mighty Muggs, Robot Heroes etc. don't count then I don't see why Be@rbricks should, so I've put them into Article08.
Wow so if a toy is body complete and not broken, it still counts and so do customs.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Yes. Not all customs count though. See Article20.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoptimus
I really have no idea how many TF I have in my collection.... all I know is I have a lot... and mostly still MISB and MIB. Only started taking them out of their box to display last year....
Transformers Stealth Force -- should they count for UCM? I just see if a general consensus can be agreed upon here before resorting to making another poll.
My opinion: no. They're more like merchandise than what I consider to be proper Transformer action figures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
what was the ruling on RPM's? i see these in the same classification
The RPMs don't count because they're classified under Article 17 which states that only transforming movie toys count and non-transforming movie toys don't. Stealth Force do technically transform though... but they don't transform into robots. They're just vehicles with attack modes.
But I suppose the same could be said about Combiner Class Devastator who is a set of vehicles that transform into body parts. I don't think we ever reached a consensus for Combiner Class Devastator. Perhaps it may be time to have a poll about movie toys that do transform but don't have robot modes... but I'd rather avoid doing a poll if possible.
Lemme put it this way, does anyone object if we don't count the Combiner Class Constructicons and Stealth Force TFs individually? If a sufficient number of people object on this thread then I'll make a poll -- if not then I say they don't count.
Didn't BW Mutant Beasts counted? Same thing - 2 modes, no robot mode.
And just to be difficult... I think the polls were flawed because they allowed people to rule out various 'Transformers Toys' from a Transformers Toy counting method.
Transformers are toys, and it's a Transformers Toy count... so if it is recognised as a 'Toy' and classified as legally branded as a 'Transformers' (toy) product, all those 'non convertable' toys and 'non-robot' toys shouldn't have been polled to begin with.
It's a Toy collection, so just count *all* the toys, and don't ask collectors to subjectively decide on things that are undisputably toys... because their demographic's focus is on the (older) action-figure side of collecting, making voting flawed.
Polling non-collectors would be more objective, because they can more accurately identify a 'toy', without thinking about how it makes them look for accepting 'junior' toys, or worrying about other people having a bigger collection based on what each restrict themselves to collecting. Ask a non-collector, 'is this a toy', and if they say yes, then it counts (if it is a Transformers product).
The only thing that should be polled, if required, is what constitutes 'complete' when it comes to things like multi-packs (like Reflector or Armada toys packed with a Minicon - how far do you break up a set before one becomes 'incomplete' in the collection listing). A good test is how would you list it for sale/review, and list whatever is left when that figure is removed - if any component can't be classed as 'complete', then something can't be separated from it as a separate 'Toy' (would you buy or review Armada Optimus without Sparkplug... Sparkplug may look like it's a separate toy, but if it makes Optimus incomplete without it, it would need to remain a componant of the larger figure - like Cityformers with their smaller robots).
Objectively, everything that is legally released as a Transformers toy, in a toy collection, should count, no matter what it is or how many they have.
To test that, RPMs MiniVehicles and Speed Stars Stealth Force - are they Transformers products? Yes. Are they Toys? Yes.
I count how many toys I have in my Transformers collection... so they count.
If the people polled are all more committed to the toys aimed at the older demographic, and vote against these 'toys', then the poll result is biased and contradicts the purpose of a toy collection count.
It's like when people are polled in public about things... results are often flawed based on how the poll is conducted (using phones or internet rules out certain demographics from participating), or where it is conducted (socio-economic differences, politically sensative areas, ethnic groupings), or even who is asked (gender, religion)... can all alter a poll result.
In the case of the UCM, only serious collectors were polled about what counts to them as a Transformers toy, instead of asking what counts as a toy in general.
If you can't avoid a biased demographic, then an objective question needs to be asked to get an objective response. It would have then avoided the 'need' to poll a majority of the Articles listed in the first posting.
Unfortunately, for the purpose of comparing new data to past data, any re-definition of a collection count would mean starting all over again with the comparative data.
(then again, if consistancy of data is an issue as addressed on the first page of this topic, then the other variable should be eliminated - the participants... only those people involved in a previous count, can and must all be involved in future counts, or else the total results and averages of such a small, changing sample of people, are gonna throw out the integrity of the results anyway)
To me, the Mutant Beasts have two definitive modes - i.e. two alt modes. The Combiner Class Constructicons and Stealth Force TFs only have one "definitive" mode and transform into an 'intermediate' mode (i.e. body part, attack mode). I personally don't really consider intermediate modes as being a proper mode... but this is just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
You're looking at a quantitative count whereas I believe the UCM looks more at a qualitative count. There are pros and cons to either method of counting - your quantitative way is simpler and would probably yield more consistent results... however others might feel it to be "cheap" because people could boost their collection counts with what they perceive as merchandise rather than action figures like PVCs, statues, balls, bop bags, pinball games etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Anyway, this is all a moot point since, as you said...
As for...Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
The project is a census to keep track of collectors' collection sizes and ultimately answer the question of "How big is the average collection?"Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Anyway, all this really should have been debated at the outset of this project in 2005-06 when we were deciding the rules of the project. The ship's pretty much sailed now, unless someone wants to start a new project and run with that.
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Getting back to the question at hand... I take it you're voicing an objection against not counting the Combiner Class Constructicons and Stealth Forcers then.
Does anyone else concur?
None of those are 'toys', which was the point of what I was saying... if you are counting toys for a 'Transformers Count', polls on those sort of things (and most of the Articles) would have been unnecessary. It just over-complicated a process that could have been a lot simpler (and more objective) from the outset.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
And personal bias doesn't boost collections, it prohibits others from counting *toys* they have in their collection. I have a room full of toys, but according to what other people have voted, a large number aren't toys. I support a universal method for statistical purposes (like this project), but that just bugs me.
Which was the point of the 'devils advocate' bit on how accurate is 'an average' if the sample polled is so different each time? (I'm not saying a poll shouldn't be taken - just that people participating or compiling shouldn't get too worked up over its accuracy or parameters) It's like surveying people about what their religion is, and each time it involves different people... statistically it would appear that the demographic has changed, but those people in the first survey may not have changed their religion at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
As per my posting... if they are toys, and they are legit Transformers (r), they count. As per the existing UCM, you may have to take a poll to see what the 'collectors' think.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I think we're now delving into subjective definitions of what counts as a "toy". The technical definition of "toy" can be quite broad, such as "...any object that can be used for play". Perhaps it would be better to replace the word "toy" with "action figure," which is defined as "a posable character figurine". The term 'action figure' would, by definition, discount toys like balls, PVC figurines etc. But you may still run into problems here because a lot of Transformer PVC figurines actually do have some posability and some collectors may argue that the term action figure would only exclude absolutely non-posable statues (thus PVCs and even Mighty Muggs could still arguably be counted as action figures).Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
That's why I'm hesitant in making more polls and creating new articles. Even when new polls are made, whenever possible I try to update existing articles rather than create new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Devil's advocate: your personal bias would disclude people from counting "toys" like balls and bop bags etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Fair enough, but as you know it's too late to really change anything for this project now.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
I object to combiner class devestator (ROTF) being removed from the UCM.
As I see it Devestator while lacking individual modes does transform from multiple vehicles into a robot. While lacking the amount of vehicles needed to make him movie accurate as a toy he does reflect what the movie portrayed: one singular personality.
As for the rest, when i count my collection for personal track i tend to count any that have their own individual personality or bio ie i also include targetmasters etc as they have their own bio in western release.
However a good point was raised as what makes an item complete. If an armada line figure didn't have it's minicon i wouldn't count it as complete.
Thats just what i think anyway.
i personaly do not care how many i have and i dont really care about playing a measuring stick game with how many toys i have, thats why i stick with lots and lots when people ask me.... if you cant enjoy looking at my collection without wanting to know how many i have to compare to other collections then i really dont want you to know.. just enjoy the perve for what it is.
so Sharkys collection count = Lots and Lots
and thats the bottom line.................
:p
It's not that i like comparing my collection to others. i just like to know how many i have.
It's more i don't like some being classed and not others. Though i can see everyone has a different point of view on this as some will class rpm's and i don't but i do class 3" titanium and targetmasters etc