POLL: Skids, Mudflap. Racist?

[SofaMan]

So because I laughed at them, does that make me racist? Does it make everyone else who laughed at it racist?

I laughed at them as well. Just because the characters as a whole have racist overtones, doesn't make every single thing they did unfunny, and doesn't make you a racist by extension. I've only ever said that we should acknowledge them as being essentially characters that take advantage of racist stereotypes, and specifically said that we should not over-react. They are not, by a very long way, the most offensive caricatures of black people every presented on the screen.

It is very important throughout this discussion that we keep what is said in proportion, and not create straw men. By putting forward my view that the characters are racist, I am not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with that is a racist. I'm simply trying to make a reasoned case, and provide some evidence.

I'm sure it offended people, but its not meant to be in offence. Its comedy. Its meant to be taken in jest, not serious.

This is the most insidious form of racism - the kind people 'don't really mean' and is 'just a joke'. It may have been funny to you, and it may have been funny to me. I'm not immune to bad taste humour. That does not mean that everyone was quite so sanguine about the way they represent black culture. Since we were not the target of the caricatures in question, it is entirely understandable that we were not personally offended by them. I don't think there are any African-Americans who post on this board.

I'm a white heterosexual anglo-saxon male. I have rarely experienced prejudice against me personally for these reasons. People of different races, cultures, religions, sexualities and sexes have and continue to. I don't think it hurts us to try and be a little more aware of what different people around us might consider offensive, and conversely is always helps not to be too easily offended.

[1AZRAEL1]

I laughed at them as well. Just because the characters as a whole have racist overtones, doesn't make every single thing they did unfunny, and doesn't make you a racist by extension. I've only ever said that we should acknowledge them as being essentially characters that take advantage of racist stereotypes, and specifically said that we should not over-react. They are not, by a very long way, the most offensive caricatures of black people every presented on the screen.

It is very important throughout this discussion that we keep what is said in proportion, and not create straw men. By putting forward my view that the characters are racist, I am not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with that is a racist. I'm simply trying to make a reasoned case, and provide some evidence.



This is the most insidious form of racism - the kind people 'don't really mean' and is 'just a joke'. It may have been funny to you, and it may have been funny to me. I'm not immune to bad taste humour. That does not mean that everyone was quite so sanguine about the way they represent black culture. Since we were not the target of the caricatures in question, it is entirely understandable that we were not personally offended by them. I don't think there are any African-Americans who post on this board.

I'm a white heterosexual anglo-saxon male. I have rarely experienced prejudice against me personally for these reasons. People of different races, cultures, religions, sexualities and sexes have and continue to. I don't think it hurts us to try and be a little more aware of what different people around us might consider offensive, and conversely is always helps not to be too easily offended.

I'm not meaning that you are saying that because we laughed at it, we are racist. Sorry I reread it and I can kinda see how it sounded lol.

But, I know some African-Americans who found it funny.

The point I'm trying to make is, we need to not take things so seriously.

I'm sure that there are some coloured people making jokes at white people.

And back to SBC with Borat, I know people have seen it, with the whole "Running of the Jews", some of them would have found that bad, but SBC himself is a Jew.

I can see how that was offensive, but it was still funny.

I really am trying to see Mudflap & Skidz as offensive, but I just cant.

(I know I will end up getting in trouble for this lol)

[GoktimusPrime]

I loved that episode of Seinfeld when George Costanza desperately tried to make friends with a black person to prove to his boss that he wasn't racist. George was lamenting that he didn't have any black friends and Jerry said something like, "You don't have any white friends either."

P.S.:

I'm sure that there are some coloured people making jokes at white people.

Better yet, a white person sending up white people

[GoktimusPrime]

I recently found this article where Julie White (Judy Witwicky) commented on the allegations of racism in ROTF. She says Bay's intention was to make the twins hip and "gangsta" so that kids could relate to them.

His intention was to be antic and amusing and, I think, like, street and cool. But those of us who are older were like, "What the hell is that!?"

Parental Discretion Advisory: Article contains some strong language.

[Robzy]

I recently found this article where Julie White (Judy Witwicky) commented on the allegations of racism in ROTF. She says Bay's intention was to make the twins hip and "gangsta" so that kids could relate to them.

Yeah, instead he just made them dumb and "ray-cist" so that a lot of black people could be offended.

Oh well... no biggie Mr Bay! I'm sure you'll come up with another grand nugget of comedy gold for TF3

Originally Posted by Julie White
I'm sure Michael wasn't trying to offend anyone. Kevin Dunn and I asked him about it and he said, "Well, it tested great with the kids."... I can't be the apologist for that big, damn movie. I had nothing to do with that.

...And the Blame Game continues...

All you ever hear/read on this issue is... It was Bay's fault, it was the actors' fault, it was the writers' fault... geez who cares??!! I wish Bay would just grow some effing DEVASTATOR BALLS and admit that it was a lousy attempt at "humour" that totally back-fired in his face!

[kup]

All you ever hear/read on this issue is... It was Bay's fault, it was the actors' fault, it was the writers' fault... geez who cares??!! I wish Bay would just grow some effing DEVASTATOR BALLS and admit that it was a lousy attempt at "humour" that totally back-fired in his face!

Unfortunately Bay considers ROTF a fantastic work of film making as he judges his films by the Box Office results which are massive. Since the studios only care about money, they are more likely to praise and encourage Bay rather than restrain him for the next movie.

[SofaMan]

Unfortunately Bay considers ROTF a fantastic work of film making as he judges his films by the Box Office results which are massive. Since the studios only care about money, they are more likely to praise and encourage Bay rather than restrain him for the next movie.

I still maintain that ROTF only did as well as it did off of the back of TF1. People went to see it assuming it would be as good as the first one. I wonder how many people went and saw it multiple times, and if so how many times, compared to TF1. TF1 was 57% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, RotF is 19%.

I think we'll get a reasonable indicator of how good RotF really was in people's minds when TF3 comes out. Once bitten, twice shy.

[RagingBull]

yeah sure they act black but thats not racist...you dont call those pasty white kids who act black racist do you?

everyone i know laughed every time these guys did something. i loved them.

oh and PC people there. if you dont like it dont watch it. simple

[SofaMan]

yeah sure they act black but thats not racist...you dont call those pasty white kids who act black racist do you?

everyone i know laughed every time these guys did something. i loved them.

oh and PC people there. if you dont like it dont watch it. simple

I don't think it's fair to just dismiss objections to the objectionable content of the film by saying it comes from "PC people". The old "love it or leave it" epithet doesn't hold much water either. The debate actually went into some depth on earlier pages, but to adress your specific points:

"Pasty white kids" have made a choice to adopt something about black culture that speaks to them as individuals. Whatever you may think of it (and it frequently is not held in high regard) they have not done it in order to mock it. When you take something on as part of your identity, you do it because you believe it represents something positive, in whatever sense that means to you - "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" etc. That is the context of what is taking place, and context is absolutely key to this discussion. If you disregard context, then the whole attempt to discuss this becomes pointless.

Skids and Mudflap are characters, not real people who've made personal choices. Someone (either the writers, or Bay, or both) designed them to be what they are. They speak in ebonics, mock the ability to read, have jug ears, gold teeth, bulging eyes. This is part of the cultural 'coding' that has been used for decades to make African-Americans appear ridiculous, like a lower kind of person.

I'd encourage you to read "Robots in Blackface". It's a good deconstruction of some of the issues taking place.

Those of us, like Robzy, myself and others, who've taken the trouble of critiquing these unwelcome Bayisms in TF1 and RotF do so because we love Transformers, and we don't want to see it debased into something sour and awful because some blinkered white heterosexual male frat-boy with a camera thinks it might make a few bucks. I don't want an Optimus Prime who is a face-shredding genocidal maniac. I don't want Transformers who implicitly mock real humans with real feelings. And mildly amusing as it may have been in the context of the film, I don't particularly want Transformers who fart parachutes or hump legs or have testicles. Because Transformers does not need these things in order to tell a good, worthy, action-packed, funny and enjoyable story. All of these examples really tell a huge amount about how little respect Bay has for the story he's telling, and the people he shares a world with (i.e. anyone who has grown beyond 15-year-old male power fantasies).

[OrionPax]

Don't think thats racist...It's just Bay trying (and failing) to introduce some 'hip' characters to be popular among children. But I would agree that they are a poor choice on characters.