Canon

[Hursticon]

Okay, I too have calmed down a bit so I'd like to clear a couple of things up and put this behind us.

Goki, you know I've got quite a bit of respect for you for a number of reasons mate and I know you love to impart your extensive, some what scarily clinical , knowledge of TFs onto others - I wouldn't have it any other way.

Please don't think I was solely aiming my comments at you, as I wasn't, but I think that both you and I know that one doesn't have to specifically say something, or say anything for that matter, in-order to convey a message and I think between the tone of a couple of those previous posts and the suggestion to watch the Beast Wars series came across to me and evidently Verno that there was an implied suggestion that he should look elsewhere for his answers and that some were tiring of answering his questions <- This has obviously been misinterpretation.

I may of took it too personally from my own experiences of trying to learn from people in a position of teaching and basically being told to bugger off and fend for myself, as I've discussed with you before - This I should not of done and I'm now currently feeling a little like Cheetor (i.e. young and still learning at the age of 26).

Unfortunately I, and I guess others, didn't quite see it that way so... perhaps one could've maybe worded it a little better but regardless, we now know what the story is and all of this you have cleared up and you've stated what your intent was - what is in the past is in the past eh?

As it was you Goki who actually inspired me to want to know more and to seek out various information relating to TFs in varied forms of media, namely those Titan Marvel G1 Reprints which have been an expensive but informative and fun venture , I can definitely agree with you in that acquiring the 1st hand sources for one's self can be quite rewarding and can save one a lot of time, just keep in mind though that some of these resources are freaking hard to come by, can be expensive, and that one might need or prefer the info sooner rather than later and hence would prefer to just ask the questions here.

Also, mate I'd just like to say that I was most certainly not implying that you'd wasted your time in this thread - I apologise if I offended you this way but do know that it was most definitely not my intention as I find it rather comforting to know that I'm not the only one who spends lengthy amounts of time typing, proofing and editing their posts.

...

As a thought, it really does go to show how tremendously deep the lore of TFs can be and how hard it can be to ascertain information regarding it, especially when there are quite clearly so many holes within it that just invoking the lore in discussion can produce such passionate debate in all manners of it's existence.


You're setting yourself quite a task Verno in creating your fan-fiction whilst adhering to as much rule and fact in doing so, please do continue to ask questions man whether you're inclined to go to other websites and sources or not - This thread is becoming quite robust in information and I'd like to see it continue in it's positive direction.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

You're right OTAG, and in essense that's basically what I am doing: Making my own 'continuity'. Gok coined it "Vernoverse".

But I can't base it on nothing. I have guide lines I have to work within, and if I can draw on previous canonological events and such, then my continuity is all the better for it.

I'm sorry if people are tiring of discussing things. But as this is a message board, and this topic is in the Discussions and Questions area, I thought I was in the right place.

I'm sorry. No more questions from me.

No no no, that's so not what I was getting at - please ask away as much as you like. I love putting forward my own half-baked theories on TF lore almost as much as Goki does, it's how I kept myself from going nuts during the philosophy days and how I distract myself during dentist visits these days. If I wasn't so flat out with Japan preparations I'd be on this thread all day suggesting Quintessons as an Intelligent Design equivalent for the pseudo-Yahweh Primus, and how the Headmaster process could have been a Primus-subliminally-suggested step towards the Beast Wars incorporation of organic components and subsequent evolution to technorganics (except that in the Odieverse BM is just a bad dream).
Even if it was wearing thin (it's not), 1: you're a mate - and my only friend in Tasmania even remotely close to my own age to boot - so I'd let it slide and 2: there's a whole board of people here who can and are answering your questions without my having to lift a finger. I'm kinda sorry I've been missing out on the fun truth be told.
What I WAS trying to point out is that you're pretty much charging at windmills here - which is fine, but I did and do feel kind of obligated to let you know. My comment is in no way a reflection on you, but rather on the mess that is G1 Canon.
I mean, the G1 cartoon series - from which, say, the throwaway line about lasercores which later got retrofitted to fit in with the idea of Sparks introduced in BW, came from - was really just a half-hour long toy advert where continuity and consistency were really peripheral considerations - if they factored in at all.
So we get things like Megatron built the Constructicons on Earth in 1984/5 after being built by them millions of years ago on Cybertron, presumably after he converted them from peaceful architects to outright Decepticons with a tentacle-mind-rape machine. We get Vector Sigma as the only way to bestow life and personality on TFs - apart from the Dinobots and maybe the Constructicons. And possibly the cartoon Predacons (i.e. the Predaking ones), who were apparently built as a joint project by the Decepticons and Quintessons in 5 Faces of Darkness, even though Vector Sigma was nice and safe on Autobot-controlled Cybertron.
And that's all in the same cartoon series. Once you factor in the old Marvel comics (and G2) it gets even more complicated/contradictory (is the Matrix a computer program or an atom-bomb-shaped Autobot artifact? If the latter, how come it never shows up in the X-ray in A Prime Problem? Or even rates a single mention before the Movie? If it's a program, did it fit onto the same floppy disc as Prime's whole personality? Aaargh me Grasshopper head hurt!), and then when you add BW (which as you know was written by writers learning about the existing TF lore/s while writing the series) on top of it it's all just an even bigger mess.
BW set so many of the now-standard TF conventions and did so excellently, but it was still built on, well...

As a thought, it really does go to show how tremendously deep the lore of TFs can be and how hard it can be to ascertain information regarding it, especially when there are quite clearly so many holes within it that just invoking the lore in discussion can produce such passionate debate in all manners of it's existence.

...this.

Nah bugger that man, you ask as many questions as you like because no one has the right to suggest you stop asking questions.

This pretty much spot-on.
And of course we're all internet pals here, so even besides Goki and myself being teachers - and not the kind of lousy/burnt-out sit-down-&-shut-up teachers that put so many people off learning - shooting people with TF questions down just isn't something we'd do.
Sorry for speaking for you @Goki btw.

Please don't think I was solely aiming my comments at you, as I wasn't... <- This has obviously been misinterpretation.

Purty much, apologies on my part for not being as clear as I should have.
We're all cool by me.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

As for the latest question on Sparks V Lasercores, I'd suggest if you're going to distinguish between the two then Sparks would probably be the 'spirit' bit with the Lasercore pretty much just a physical fuel pump/heart equivalent.
But then according to the TFWiki http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Laser_core#Laser_core_and_Spark the Lasercore has been indicated as the housing unit for the Spark, as indicated by a few bios. But then on the Spark page it says there was an early idea that the lasercore was the core of a spark, so we're right back to WTFland.
This gets a bit (more) complicated in light of the way the BW animators used the Matrix as Optimus Prime's Spark Chamber in Optimal Situation, but can be salvaged with the throwaway Rhinox line about Optimus' Spark becoming 'one with the Matrix'. This would also help explain the Optimal Optimus upgrade insamuch as the (cartoon) Matrix has historically been shown to upgrade Hot Rod into Rodimus, with the permanent nature of Optimal optimus' upgrade explicable by the 'mingling Sparks' bit and/or differences between Maximal and Autobot technology (greater adavances in the former and/or the 'liquid metal' components). But then you run into the problem of why did BW Megatron also get a permanent upgrade? 'G1'/Guzzler sparks in Maximal/Predacon tech could cover it, but I'd suggest it's at least partially due the resilience of G1 Meg's Spark/will to live - he sure cheated death enough in the original 'toons. And of course Starscream's Spark didn't upgrade Waspinator, but 1: Screamer's Spark is an abberation and 2: Both Primal and BW Megs were Transmetals when they mingled Sparks, whereas Waspy was possessed and had a standard Maximal body.

[LordCyrusOmega]

And of course Starscream's Spark didn't upgrade Waspinator, but 1: Screamer's Spark is an abberation and 2: Both Primal and BW Megs were Transmetals when they mingled Sparks, whereas Waspy was possessed and had a standard Maximal body.

I read in the Beast Wars Guidebook that Waspinator became a transmetal after his and Starscreams sparks were merged which explains Waspinators jet mode.
Did this appear in any media?

[Hursticon]

I read in the Beast Wars Guidebook that Waspinator became a transmetal after his and Starscreams sparks were merged which explains Waspinators jet mode.
Did this appear in any media?

Well I know for a fact that it didn't occur in the show, maybe the Japanese Metals Ps2 game perhaps?

[LordCyrusOmega]

Could be. or just the bio. or just written for the guidebook.

[Hursticon]

Could be. or just the bio. or just written for the guidebook.

It's a cool concept, don't get me wrong - Just confusing though as I don't think you see TM Waspinator in any fiction apart from the figure... I could be wrong though.

[Hursticon]

As for the latest question on Sparks V Lasercores, I'd suggest if you're going to distinguish between the two then Sparks would probably be the 'spirit' bit with the Lasercore pretty much just a physical fuel pump/heart equivalent.

I used to think of the Lasercore as the Nuclei of the Spark with the 'spark' around it providing, the overall name, and the life-force/spirit.
Now, I see them as 2 separate technologies re: here.

But then according to the TFWiki http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Laser_core#Laser_core_and_Spark the Lasercore has been indicated as the housing unit for the Spark, as indicated by a few bios. But then on the Spark page it says there was an early idea that the lasercore was the core of a spark, so we're right back to WTFland.

Oh the joys of our beloved fiction huh?, lol!

This gets a bit (more) complicated in light of the way the BW animators used the Matrix as Optimus Prime's Spark Chamber in Optimal Situation, but can be salvaged with the throwaway Rhinox line about Optimus' Spark becoming 'one with the Matrix'. This would also help explain the Optimal Optimus upgrade insamuch as the (cartoon) Matrix has historically been shown to upgrade Hot Rod into Rodimus, with the permanent nature of Optimal optimus' upgrade explicable by the 'mingling Sparks' bit and/or differences between Maximal and Autobot technology (greater adavances in the former and/or the 'liquid metal' components). But then you run into the problem of why did BW Megatron also get a permanent upgrade? 'G1'/Guzzler sparks in Maximal/Predacon tech could cover it, but I'd suggest it's at least partially due the resilience of G1 Meg's Spark/will to live - he sure cheated death enough in the original 'toons.

That's pretty much exactly how I've always seen it too as I sort of like the idea that Prime's Spark merged with the Matrix as it gives rise to the explanation of why the right barer gets an upgrade, as you say , a pity that the scene of the Maximals replacing G1 Megatron's Spark was cut eh?

[Verno]

I always thought a "Prime" drew their power from the Allspark via the Matrix.

When Optimus Primal took the 'Matrix-shaped' object from Prime's chest in Optimal Situation, I believed he was taking the 'actual' Matrix into his body, as a Prime's spark is in essense already one with the Allspark inside the Matrix.

So basically, The Matrix is a Prime's Spark that is empowered by the Allspark and is housed in the double-handled canister we know and love.

[Hursticon]

So basically, The Matrix is a Prime's Spark that is empowered by the Allspark and is housed in the double-handled canister we know and love.

Ooh! - Now, I like this.
So every recipient would essentially hand over their spark to the Matrix upon receiving it yeah? and hence the upgrade?