griffin's T3 (Total Transformers Toy) checklist/counting method.

[SofaMan]

I like this idea in all but the combined mode part. I treat Transformers based on their fictional "sentience", which also comes from the names / tech specs / etc provided to them by the manufacturers. For example, Reflector. They each have separate robot identities, and are each independently sentient. This is as opposed to Optimus Prime, Roller and the trailer, which are not independently sentient, or pretender shells.

<snip>

The exception I have here is Nebulan partners (which came with the toys) as they are accessories and not robots (using the US fiction as stated by the manufacturer on boxes, tech specs, etc).

I take your point here, but I can also see what Griffin is getting at. Instinctively, I want to count MM Combiners separately - each TF has an individual identity expressed through its own name and individual personality. However once we do that, it does become hard to justify not counting Nebulans individually.

The current UCM is increasingly unwieldy as we keep adding exceptions/clarifications, which is one reason why I tried to break it in half into "What Counts" and "What Doesn't Count". It does need further cleaning up, and I for instance would like to see what is/isn't a TF defined by no more than half a dozen clear principles. There are a fair few UCM Articles that could be rolled into the 4 that Griffin has stated.

Certainly the "What is a HasTak toy?" principle is a good one, but I think we also need to make some allowance for what we consider to be individual toys, discrete from HasTak marketing decisions. Since TFs are "Robots in Disguise", perhaps we should count them based on individual robot modes. Reflector would then count as 3. MM Combiners would count individually. Exceptions like Kicker and Alpha Quintesson are rare enough that we can include them by default.

[Kyle]

I like this idea in all but the combined mode part. I treat Transformers based on their fictional "sentience", which also comes from the names / tech specs / etc provided to them by the manufacturers. For example, Reflector. They each have separate robot identities, and are each independently sentient. This is as opposed to Optimus Prime, Roller and the trailer, which are not independently sentient, or pretender shells.

I have chosen this method for the reason that Transformers are , at the manufacturer's behest, "Robots in Disguise". They do not need to have an alternate form to continue to be a sentient robot, even though the may need to get their friends together to disguise themselves.

The exception I have here is Nebulan partners (which came with the toys) as they are accessories and not robots (using the US fiction as stated by the manufacturer on boxes, tech specs, etc).

While I understand griffin's proposal to base the collection count on "toys" as physical products, and believe this to be very valid, I prefer myself to base it on the sentient robot modes (or characters) which is how the figures are referred to by the shows, manufacturer tech specs, and fits into the "Robots in Disguise" concept.

I like this as well. My mind (as a collector) always wanted to count like Griffin, while my heart (as a fan) always wanted to count like Tiby.

What is the purpose/meaning of counting your collection? The number is only an indicator of sorts. Does "the number" have to be accurate? No, it can never be truly "accurate", because no one will ever be truly happy with any single counting method. No single number will ever be "universal". As the number is only an indicator, why limit yourself to a single number? Why don't we have two numbers, as two numbers make a better indicator?

As such, I propose that we list two numbers:

1) First number (Mind As Collector) considers a "complete" toy. A toy whose mould (not necessarily the toy itself) can be released individually or become a part of another package.

2) Second number (Heart As Fan) considers individual toy which is a "character". It does not have to be transformable or have an alt mode, as long as it is considered a "character".

eg. G1 Optimus Prime + Trailer + Roller = 1, 1 (Roller is a part of the Prime character, so doesn't count individually.)
eg. Star Convoy + Roller + Hot Rodimus = 2, 2
eg. Metroplex + components = 1, 3
eg. Armada Optimus Prime + Sparkplug = 2, 2
eg. Reflector = 1, 3
eg. BW Neo Magmatron = 1, 1
eg. Devastator = 6, 6
eg. Superion = 5, 5
eg. Headmaster with head = 1, 1
eg. Targetmaster with partner = 1, 2
eg. Powermaster/Godmaster with partner = 1, 2
eg. Pretender with shell = 1, 1
eg. Brainmaster with "brain" = 1, 1
eg. Breastforce member with partner = 1, 2
eg. Micromaster Team = 4, 4
eg. Actionmaster = 1, 1
eg. Minicon Team = 3, 3
eg. Animated Safeguard = 1, 2
eg. Robot Heros 2-packs = 2, 2
eg. Universe Hound + Ravage = 1, 2
eg. Masterforce Overlord = 1, 3 (Mega and Giga were the "characters" early on in the series, but the robot body gained sentience later on.)

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Edit:
Made some amendments.

[Golden Phoenix]

I agree with most of that. It seems reasonable and fair.
Only problem I have is with what you would say counts as 2 and other count as 1, but everyone will have some gripe here or there
Mine is about the mini-con partners.
I think they should count separately because both figures can still function without the other, it may be reduced, but it still works.
Hasbro/Takara could still market either individually and they could still work, which they have done, they did it with Deluxe Armada Prime and a lot of the partner mini-cons
The mini-con is also interchangeable. In most cases, it doesn't really matter which mini-con you use with the bigger one, you can still get most of the gimmicks working with any mini-con

So for me, any figure that doesn't need the mini-con would count separately.
Figures like Overload with Rollout would count as 1 because Overload can't get to robot mode without Rollout, nor can he get to his shoulder cannon mode without Optimus. He would be stuck in Vehicle mode, which really needs something to drag it around (ie Prime or Rollout)
But Optimus Prime and Sparkplug would count as 2 because Prime could be sold without Sparkplug, or with any other mini-con and still be fine. Same can be said for Sparkplug, which has happened

[heroic_decepticon]

I like this method of counting. Might actually encourage a guy like me to actually start counting my Transformers. Other methods were just too prohibitive with endless 'articles' I cannot be bothered to familiarise myself with.

Kudos!

[autobreadticon]

i cant really explain my method but here some examples

toys that have no changes and repackaged in different packaging/series are not counted , e.g Armada Unicron and universe 2.0 Unicron

However characters with significant modifications or repaints are included , Those with slight mod. animated Lockdown and Insiginia Voyager Optimus Prime (Earth mode) should not be included, repaints with significant names e.g Blazing Lockdown and Lockdown are counted as different toys.


Characteres with unique personalities should be counted individually
G1 Optimus Prime with Trailer and Roller should not be counted seperately
i don't think it should be based on packaging, G1 Reflector should represent 3 Transformer Toy, but the combined form is not included
, the toys should be counted based on intended toy character
so Cybertron Laserbeak should be counted

[griffin]

I like this idea in all but the combined mode part. I treat Transformers based on their fictional "sentience", which also comes from the names / tech specs / etc provided to them by the manufacturers. For example, Reflector. They each have separate robot identities, and are each independently sentient. This is as opposed to Optimus Prime, Roller and the trailer, which are not independently sentient, or pretender shells.

I have chosen this method for the reason that Transformers are , at the manufacturer's behest, "Robots in Disguise". They do not need to have an alternate form to continue to be a sentient robot, even though the may need to get their friends together to disguise themselves.

The exception I have here is Nebulan partners (which came with the toys) as they are accessories and not robots (using the US fiction as stated by the manufacturer on boxes, tech specs, etc).

While I understand griffin's proposal to base the collection count on "toys" as physical products, and believe this to be very valid, I prefer myself to base it on the sentient robot modes (or characters) which is how the figures are referred to by the shows, manufacturer tech specs, and fits into the "Robots in Disguise" concept.

I do accept that, and that was how I used to count my Transformers, based on character, not as 'mere toys'. However, the point here was to generate a counting method that made it possible to compare objectively acquired numbers with other collectors, and that means taking the subjective element out of it. This counting method isn't intended to replace your own method if you don't like it, but is meant to offer an easier alternative to counting a collection for the various collection polls held, or to compare tallys between different fans. If we have a collection poll or count comparisson, we just need an easier method than the 20+ article 'fan-voted' method, which in itself is a subjective method, and totals can't be relied upon to be accurate because many don't actually follow the entire UCM list of articles anyway.

I take your point here, but I can also see what Griffin is getting at. Instinctively, I want to count MM Combiners separately - each TF has an individual identity expressed through its own name and individual personality. However once we do that, it does become hard to justify not counting Nebulans individually.

The current UCM is increasingly unwieldy as we keep adding exceptions/clarifications, which is one reason why I tried to break it in half into "What Counts" and "What Doesn't Count". It does need further cleaning up, and I for instance would like to see what is/isn't a TF defined by no more than half a dozen clear principles. There are a fair few UCM Articles that could be rolled into the 4 that Griffin has stated.

Certainly the "What is a HasTak toy?" principle is a good one, but I think we also need to make some allowance for what we consider to be individual toys, discrete from HasTak marketing decisions. Since TFs are "Robots in Disguise", perhaps we should count them based on individual robot modes. Reflector would then count as 3. MM Combiners would count individually. Exceptions like Kicker and Alpha Quintesson are rare enough that we can include them by default.

The exceptions bit is why I wanted to generate an objective counting method, to prevent exceptions. Once you have an exception to a rule, you need to start listing the exceptions or the reason for the exceptions. It defeats the purpose of a simplified counting method. Treating the toys as mere toys, makes it easier to count, but there will still be some that could be debatable based on if multi-pack items can be considered mutually exclusive to each other.

The original idea I had was to just generate a Total Checklist, with all the toy products already listed as separate toy products, but as the list developed to an amazing length (covering TFs products from other countries, and varients and exclusives), and with more discussion on the 'unweidly' UCM started up, I felt I needed to post up my 'toy' counting method for people to consider as an easier alternative for comparing counts.

And as Kyle said above (quoted below), this is just a count for comparing collections or polls, to be in addition to what you personally have as a fan-based count. If we need to be doing a whole new, second count for comparison or polling, why not make it an easy, objective one, that doesn't rely on fan-subjective articles that either causes confusion, or are ignored anyway. And you can't get more objective than just perceiving the toys as 'mere toys' to get that second comparable count.

I like this as well. My mind (as a collector) always wanted to count like Griffin, while my heart (as a fan) always wanted to count like Tiby.

1) First number (Mind As Collector) considers a "complete" toy. A toy whose mould (not necessarily the toy itself) can be released individually or become a part of another package.

2) Second number (Heart As Fan) considers individual toy which is a "character". It does not have to be transformable or have an alt mode, as long as it is considered a "character".

I agree with most of that. It seems reasonable and fair.
Only problem I have is with what you would say counts as 2 and other count as 1, but everyone will have some gripe here or there
Mine is about the mini-con partners.
I think they should count separately because both figures can still function without the other, it may be reduced, but it still works.
Hasbro/Takara could still market either individually and they could still work, which they have done, they did it with Deluxe Armada Prime and a lot of the partner mini-cons
The mini-con is also interchangeable. In most cases, it doesn't really matter which mini-con you use with the bigger one, you can still get most of the gimmicks working with any mini-con

So for me, any figure that doesn't need the mini-con would count separately.
Figures like Overload with Rollout would count as 1 because Overload can't get to robot mode without Rollout, nor can he get to his shoulder cannon mode without Optimus. He would be stuck in Vehicle mode, which really needs something to drag it around (ie Prime or Rollout)
But Optimus Prime and Sparkplug would count as 2 because Prime could be sold without Sparkplug, or with any other mini-con and still be fine. Same can be said for Sparkplug, which has happened

The larger toy may still be playable without the smaller toy, but if ever sold without the Minicon parter, either loose or in packaging, the larger toy would be classed as incomplete by both seller and buyer. You could easily buy an Armada Optimus without Sparkplug, but the seller would be accused of deception or lying if they claimed it was complete. As a toy product, collectors and Hasbro consider Armada Optimus to be complete if it has Sparkplug. As a fan, it doesn't matter so much, because you treat them as two toys when you play or display them, but as an objective count to compare with others or to poll, the larger toy would be classed as incomplete without its minicon partner. Each item in a multi-pack needs to be mutally exclusive (both independant and not requiring the other to complete it) to count as separate (sellable) 'toy products'.

i cant really explain my method but here some examples
toys that have no changes and repackaged in different packaging/series are not counted , e.g Armada Unicron and universe 2.0 Unicron
Characteres with unique personalities should be counted individually
G1 Optimus Prime with Trailer and Roller should not be counted seperately
i don't think it should be based on packaging, G1 Reflector should represent 3 Transformer Toy, but the combined form is not included
, the toys should be counted based on intended toy character
so Cybertron Laserbeak should be counted

As your own personal 'fan-based' count, you can assess each by its character, but for this (second) objective *toy* counting method, it counts each as a 'mere toy product'. It is difficult for us committed fans to look at certain toys like Reflector, and not see it as 3 toys because it is 'written up as' three characters and that's how we see them in fiction. But transform *the toy* it into its alt mode, and pretend that it never had any fiction to it (bio-card or cartoon/comic etc), it would be easier to see it as a single 'toy product', because it is sold as a camera that splits into three components.
Not many fans count Scamper, Brunt, Fasttrack or Cog as separate toys in their count, but they are all individual *character* toys that are packaged with a larger toy. They don't even combine with the larger toy like Slammer or Sixgun do, but if you tried selling Metroplex without Scamper, would you be able to list it as complete? Same with selling Reflector. The individual character names were not product names, they were just on the bio-card, so trying to sell 'Reflector' without all three figures would require you to list it as incomplete.

As for the Unicron bit you mentioned (repacked toys that have no changes to their deco), I'll use a different toy for this example, because Unicron has a Minicon which can confuse this explination with the numbering. Using Energon Sharticon as an example, it was re-released in America in Universe packaging. If by chance you had both, like in a sealed collection, you have in your possession 2 Sharkticons. 2 Sharkticons is 2 toys in your possession that you have acquired. If you spent money acquiring a certain number of toys, you would want to reflect that expense in your count.
Remember, this is an objective counting method, so ignore what characters you are counting, and ask yourself, how many *toys* do you currently have in your possession? No matter how many multiples you have, you own in your possession that particular amount of *toys*. Fortunately, not many collectors have multiples, and they are usually a negligable amount in their collection count. The point is, if you see 40 Acid Storms in a room, you are looking at 40 Transformers toys that belong to one person, not 1 toy. The collection count, or more accurately, the possession count, needs to reflect all acquisitions currently owned.

But as mentioned above, this counting method isn't aimed at replacing your existing method if you don't want to, but does offer an easier alternative to generating an objective comparable figure to other fans' counts.

[Tiby]

Based on a plain objective method for counting toys as products, I agree with your system, Griffin. I also agree with your emphasis that this is not intended to take the fun or magic out of the figures, but rather catalogue them in a uniform way for comparison purposes only.

For example, we can't have "Jedi" as a religion in our census because the comparison data falls down and the answer does not assist the intended purpose of the census. In the same way, character / fiction / tech spec based counting does not assist a count or "census" of Transformer toys, for the purpose of such a census only.

For many of us this will mean 2 systems (our own preferred and the objective method discussed here). Naturally, there is no pressure or need for anyone to participate, unless they want to, as we simply end up with a number for objective, clinical comparison purposes. The end numbers should in no way detract from anyone's enjoyment of their collection or make them feel superior or inferior to another collector. As has been said before, it is not the size of the collection that counts, it is how you feel about it.

Thanks for the idea Griffin. You have my full support (although I do NOT look forward to going through my collection to re-count!!! )

[griffin]

In the end, these alternative counting methods are probably just moot anyway, as most will either prefer to just stick to their own counting method when asked to compare, or just don't have the time and patience to recount their collection to get a second comparable count.

I'm just sharing my current counting method, which is toy-based and not character-based, or fan-opinion-based. I don't expect anyone to adopt it or use it, but it's out there now as another counting method alongside the existing ones.
It will also allow others to see how I arrive at the collection count figure I will refer to, or sometimes have in my signature.

[Golden Phoenix]

The larger toy may still be playable without the smaller toy, but if ever sold without the Minicon parter, either loose or in packaging, the larger toy would be classed as incomplete by both seller and buyer. You could easily buy an Armada Optimus without Sparkplug, but the seller would be accused of deception or lying if they claimed it was complete. As a toy product, collectors and Hasbro consider Armada Optimus to be complete if it has Sparkplug. As a fan, it doesn't matter so much, because you treat them as two toys when you play or display them, but as an objective count to compare with others or to poll, the larger toy would be classed as incomplete without its minicon partner. Each item in a multi-pack needs to be mutally exclusive (both independant and not requiring the other to complete it) to count as separate (sellable) 'toy products'.

But couldn't you say he same about the mini-con 3 packs. Because they are teams. So if you sold 2/3 of them, you would say that the team or set isn't complete.

[griffin]

So G1 Blackout only counts as 0.5 of a Transformer (or more accurately, only counts as a Transformer if you also have Spaceshot)?

It is still a playable toy, so it counts as one if you have one or both. If you have one figure, you have an incomplete, playable toy. If you have the second you have a complete playable toy(if you have all the accessories as well). Basically, if you are one of the few who doesn't get some Micromasters in their pairs, it counts as 1 with the first one, and getting the second just completes that 1. You list the pair on your roster/checklist as a single pair, and just note if it is complete or not, based on if you have both figures and their accessories.

The T3 counting method at least identifies each toy by its primary purpose/gimmick, and the *toy* in question is the *jet* called Blackout and Spaceshot, (or even the set packaged as 'Anti-Aircraft Base'). Some toys have the biped mode as its primary purpose, but most prioritise the alt-mode, as seen by how at least 95% of Transformers are packaged in that mode.

No collection count method allows you to count fractions, reguardless of what is missing. You count it as 1 if no other toy on the checklist needs it (Item 3) and is playable as part of the named figure on the checklist (Item 4). Blackout needs Spaceshot to fulfil its purpose as a 'Jet Transformers toy', so can't be counted separately on the checklist.

This method requires fans to resist focussing on the characters, and count them as 'mere toys' when doing a 'toy count'. The jet is the toy that separates into two robots. We wouldn't see either released separately by Hasbro as a toy that only turns into 'half a jet' and nothing else.

Also, while I think of it. One of their marketting tag lines may be 'Robots in Disguise', but dismissing a toy because it doesn't convert into an item of disguise would be like dismissing any toy that isn't 'More than Meets the Eye', because quite a few redecos are quite underwhelming lately...

But couldn't you say he same about the mini-con 3 packs. Because they are teams. So if you sold 2/3 of them, you would say that the team or set isn't complete.

As per Item 3, any multi-pack item that can be (and sometimes is) sold separately, because no other item in the pack needs them to classify them as complete, they count as separate 'toys'. We are counting individual toys, not teams, so 'complete' relates to the individual toys, not the teams.
As mentioned in the last paragraph of the first post, this is a counting method for toys, not packaging. If you have a sealed multi-pack of 3 toys, you own 3 toys. Two just don't magically disappear. You have in your possession as part of your collection, 3 toys, so why not count them as 3 toys? And if you are counting teams as 1 toy, most TFs toys are part of teams, which would make your overall count rather small.
Each Minicon in a 3-pack is it's own playable toy. Just like the Gen1 cassette 2-packs, these would have been sold as 3-packs because it was the smallest price point at the time, and each team was planned to a theme or bonus combining feature. But just like Combiner Teams, these are three toys that combine *in addition* to their primary, individual playability.

As for reselling, if you are selling a Land Military 3-pack, you might describe the set as being 'complete', as a 3-pack, but if you were selling each Minicon separately, you certainly wouldn't be calling Wreckage as 'incomplete' just because it is on its own.
That's how it is easy to differentiate Minicon partners from Minicons in multi-packs - if you try to sell each toy, like on ebay, each multi-pack Minicon can be sold 'complete' on its own, but each partner Minicon is needed to 'complete' the larger figure. If you saw 'Complete Armada Optimus' on ebay, you would expect it comes with Sparkplug. If you saw 'Complete Minicon Wreckage' on ebay, you would only expect Wreckage, as it doesn't need Knock Out and Bonecrusher to complete it. Being part of a team or multi-pack doesn't require it to remain in that 'set combination' to be considered complete. Otherwise, by that logic, things like the Tiger Camo Combaticons (which were never released separately) could only ever be sold 'complete' as a set and only ever count as 1.
And how about the recent Universe Minicon 12-pack? If the individual Minicons can't be counted because they have to be with 11 other Minicons, you would have trouble counting the same toys being released soon individually?